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Posts posted by Hawk

  1. Alex,

     The standard disclaimer first, and then we'll see if we can parse this out. We are not lawyers, and do not give legal advice. Now that we have that out of the way, let's try to determine exactly what the language says. In the statute, it says "or cousins of the first degree". I would need LadyC or one of the others to correct me if I'm wrong, but, I believe 1C1R's would be considered further than 1st degree. I am not sure at all on the "degree" thing. I did look up all the statutes for the States which in one way or another prohibit cousins, and there was some updating that occurred at that time, a little over a year ago. There is a list of States where 1C1R's are allowed, but, I don't have time to see if Illinois is on it at the moment.

     All of that said, being in Illinois myself, I'll tell you what I would recommend. LEAVE. I'm hoping I'm going to get a call for work out of this screwed up State today. I recommend Georgia, others will recommend other States like Florida. I'm also getting pretty partial to Tennessee, having traveled there extensively last year for work and pleasure. Plus, TN and FL have no state income tax, which, unless you've been under a rock, you will know has just went up 32% here in Illinois. I personally am going to try to make my money at a less hostile rate. I have a home which is paid off, and I have no intention of selling, and this will always be "home." But, as for the $$$, it's elsewhere brother.....js. Last one out, turn off the lights..........LOL:lol:


     p.s. Upon taking the time, IT WOULD APPEAR that 1C1R's ARE allowed in Illinois. Look on the State laws page: https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=states

     As you scroll down, you will see a section showing first cousins (blue) and 1C1R's (pinkish) prohibited. You will note Illinois in the "blue" but not the "pink". Standard disclaimer still applies, as does my further advice.......;)

  2. NoSpine,

     It's WAY beyond time you stopped hiding. You two are WAY past an age to be told what you can and cannot do by family. You have your own place. You make your own rules. You don't say where you are, and I shan't either. You've been hiding, and you are anonymous here. But, as a mod, I can peek, and did. If my index is correct, and you're not running a proxy, where you are, it is perfectly legal for the two of you to marry. Look around here :  https://www.cousincouples.com/

     Click the menu button. Get up to speed on the laws, genetics, and any possible religious arguments you may need to win. 

    I have a sneaking suspicion the family is not going to absolutely loose touch after all these years of knowing there's something going on. It may actually come as a relief that THEY no longer have to tip-toe around the subject either......js


  3. Laraeaf,

     I don't necessarily despise children, but, they do get on my nerves enough that I never had any!!! My Mom knew her chances of getting grandchildren out of me was very slim long before I had my first girlfriend. 

     However, this WOULD have been a problem with Cuz. She has two, and them and the grandchildren now are her greatest joy. She would have wanted a couple, and I would have resisted. It would have been quite the hurdle to jump. It sounds like Elliot could be, (at least for now) on the same page with you with regards to children. And, even with the mothers not talking unless it's in person, they will still see (probably already have, hence their comments) the chemistry between the two of you, and I think will come to terms with it.

     Do pop in if you would like to share or need further advice...


  4. Lynn,

     That right thar^^^^. Can you see why we always encourage our young members to wait until they are 18. How he didn't go to jail, even if YOU did initiate the deal, I'll never know. But, had you waited until 20, like you are now, and him at 32/33, do you see how that sounds so much more palatable? My preference is generally 22 or older, for the same reasons. You're in this quandary because you didn't wait. If it had never happened, at 20, would you do it now? If you get another 2 years under your belt, would you do it then?  

  5. Laraeaf,

     Don't worry about editing your posts. Plus, I'm reasonably sure you'd have to be a member and logged in to edit anyhow. You're anonymous enough here. She may not have been here yet, but, maybe she has. It doesn't really matter, because even without it, the mothers are obviously talking. I had a feeling that was going on. Believe me when I tell you that Elliot is a much better behaved and settled individual than I was at that age. (I resembled the description of 'idiot' you gave, and still do on occasion....LOL I do try to not get stupid though...) He sounds busy, but still needs the interaction, so, you may as well provide your share of it to the extent you can. Don't worry about the conversation getting to a point that should be better said in person. If it does, just say "Yeah, I really want to talk to you about this, but I'd really rather be with you when we do." 

     I have a feeling that if you play this right, your mothers will begin subtly nudging the two of you toward each other. If he's mature enough to be in the position you describe, he's mature enough to start a relationship with a 24 year old, provided you're both willing to get on the same page, and go all in. Look for his mother to be subtly nudging him that way. I have a feeling she's seeing "All work/studies, no play (to speak of)" making Elliot a dull boy, as the saying goes. Not that Elliot is dull, just that it's a busy, yet perhaps boring or monotonous life he's leading at the moment. And, I can beyond all doubt assure you both of your mothers are already wondering when there are going to be grandchildren. WAY out in front of where the two of you are, but, nowhere near out too far in front of where they are thinking. His Mom may think 22 is yet a bit young, (and I would tend to agree there), but she's already thinking about it. You being 24, there's absolutely no doubt your mother is thinking about it. Their thought process will go something along the lines of "Yeah, she's a couple years older, but he's a good boy, she's a good girl, she'll bring him along...." Now, if this does progress like I see it, the subject of genetics is going to pop up rather early on. I'd be willing to bet that's their only reservation at this point, or they would have already been more bold in their statements their slipping in. Let's get that part out to you now. If you go to the genetics page, you will find that second cousins share only very slightly more DNA than any random couple. There are NO known increased risks to the offspring on second cousins because of their relation. Now, that said, the normal issues that could be a concern with random couples would come into play. For instance. There's an increased instance of A-fib in mine and Cuz's shared side. Our Mom's just lost another first cousin to a myriad of problems, with A-fib being one of the underlying factors. His dad (our grandpas' youngest brother) had it. My grandpa had it. I have it. My Mom has it, and at least one of my brothers has it. At the same time, Cuz doesn't have it, her sister doesn't, her Mom doesn't, and, so far as we know, her Grandpa didn't have it. So, even though the tendency is there, it would have still been a crap shoot as to whether any offspring of ours would have had it. And the same goes for diabetes, cancer, or, who knows, ingrown toenails, anything that could be an inherited trait. Even in totally unrelated couples, if the tendency is strong enough on one or both sides, there's a chance said issues could pop up. But, the rarer and more serious issues sighted between first cousins does not apply to second cousins, and, has been exaggerated to the point of being a reason to prohibit first cousins from marrying in the places it is prohibited. And, unreasonably so. The chances are about the same of those same sort of issues popping up in women who get pregnant over the age of 38 or so. You will NEVER see any push to prohibit a 38 year old or beyond (at least up to late 40's) from getting pregnant. The gal I'm seeing had her son when she was 38. The boy is perfectly fine, quite smart, and already at 12 taller than her, and she's at least 5'8" or 5'9". Suffice it to say he's a healthy boy. There is absolutely no genetic reason the two of you could not marry, and have anywhere from one to a house full of children. DO NOT listen to the first iota of nonsense to the contrary. Again, WAY out in front of where you two are, but something very good to know up front, because it's going to be one of the first issues to come up.

  6. Laraeaf,

     Yeah, she's my favorite cousin, and, I've still got fairly strong feelings for her, and they're shared. We were born a week to the day apart, and once we were old enough to realize that, we've always been "best/favorite" cousins. For a time when we were young, we lived across the street from each other, and were really more like siblings than second cousins. It was all strictly platonic, and I actually had the crush on her (4 yrs) older sister....LOL Anyhow, through a series of events when we were 20, we hung out and things took a change. Things got very intense, very quickly. After a couple weeks, she get scared of what people would say, and, her own belief of the stigma, and we walked away from it. As I said, our Mom's would have been fine with it. They're first cousins. Their fathers, our grandfathers, were brothers. Hers had passed, and mine passed (looking back now, doing the math) a little over a month after our little "moment", and he never knew. At the time, only her Mom knew. I mean, we come in all rumpled up, having obviously just crawled out of my bed, and it was pretty plain SOMETHING was going on. :lol: Her Mom was speechless, (no mean feat, mind you, LOL) but got a huge grin, and never mentioned the "elephant in the room". But, at any rate, she got nervous, I didn't want to push her, and we backed away from it. It did make reunions very awkward for nearly 30 years. Probably 6 or 7 years ago now, we reconnected, aired it all out, agreed much too much water had passed beneath the bridge to go back. Plus, I was married, she has a long term BF, and neither of us have any stomach for cheating. I'm divorced now, and, certain members of the family would actually be thrilled if I were to get her away from her BF, but, she likes him, and just like a cousin relationship, it's not the rest of the family's business, nor MY place to get between them. And, as I mentioned, I'm in no real mood for a relationship of the nature required to be with her. IF her and the BF were to split, and IF I were still no further attached to one girl I'm hanging with, I MIGHT would consider VERY SLOWLY (unlike our first outing) testing the waters again. I really don't see that happening though. It would be another example of our terrible timing as it has always been, where one of us was not available when the other one was.

     I see myself hanging with this gal I'm seeing, and slowly coming out of my jaded state. My longer story on the subject has been lost to site upgrades over the years, but, she's one of two girls I was bouncing between before my cousin and I had our moment. When that became a trainwreck, is when the opportunity for me and Cuz to be together arose. So, me and this gal have met, shes done very well for herself, and is as keen to be with me as she was when we were kids. I see me letting down the wall, and letting her in. We have loved each other for 30 some years now, and did remain friends that whole time, with each other and our respective families. Her family is like a second family anyhow, so that part of it is the easy part. I just have to wrap my head around letting down the walls and doing another relationship. After the last year and a half, it really is easier said than done. But, I'm starting to warm to the idea. She's seen this site, knows some of the history with cuz, and being a highly trained medical professional, knows the facts, and would be fine with my participation here, although I must say, I don't see it being anywhere near as active as it once was. With the work that I do, and the travel it is looking like it will entail from here on out, I'll be hard pressed to have the time to do so.

     With your mother already having discussed this with his mother, I would be willing to bet the drama would not be anywhere near what either of you think it would be. THEY are already thinking the "If you weren't cousins" line, and running scenarios through their heads. It would not surprise me in the least if one or both of them don't look into it, and possibly even stumble across this site. Them actually changing their preconceived notions could take a while, but if needs be, that's where and when you present the facts here to them. As with me and mine, her Mom knew from the visual, and, shortly after we walked away from it, I told my Mom "Don't be surprised if one of these days me and Cuz become an item". She said "As long as you treat her good and you make each other happy, I'll be happy for you". So, yeah, the Mom's will have a tendency to want to see their children happy, and, if they're seeing them make each other happy platonicly, the natural progression would not come as a shock. Just take your time, and let the visual of you two interacting set in. And DON'T rush to present them the visual me and mine did to her Mom...LMAO :lol::lol::lol: Do be sure your clothes are on right side out, and brush your hair.......:blink:;):D:rolleyes:

  7. Laraeaf,

     Believe me when I tell you he is at the very least somewhat attracted to you. He's not going to learn your favorite piece to woo another woman.....js My gut tells me he's waiting on you to match his steps.


     Now, how nervy is he to follow up? This is the question which remains to be answered, and will only fully be answered face to face. However, that does not mean you cannot "pave the way" for him so to speak. Text a few times, and then set up a time to talk on the phone. Start it out casual, and see how long it takes him to start flirting. I bet it doesn't take long. I had (wrongly) assumed he was probably a couple years older, but he's a couple years younger. No real problem. I actually always recommend to our young members to wait until they are at least 20, with me preferring 22 as a better number. He's mature enough at 22 to go for it, even if he may be slightly intimidated by you being a couple years older. But, I wasn't scared at 22, and married a woman 8 years my elder. Ill-advised as it was, I wasn't scared, and told plenty of people to mind their own business. Of course, in that case, I should have listened, but, I had to live and learn.....LOL But, the age factor wasn't what doomed the relationship, her behavior did. Had she not had the issues she did, I'd still be with her today. And, with such a large age difference, the drama from everybody else did approach the level it would have had we been cousins. And, ironically, the second cousin I am very fond of is my age, and family would have actually been tickled if we had got together. I know our Mom's would have been, and, them being first cousins, their opinions would have been the only ones which mattered. Moral of the story is, had we waited until we were 22 instead of 20, things could have been much different, and we could have saved ourselves considerable grief we endured with other partners. Had we taken things a little slower at 20, things may have been much different. But, I digress to the world of "shoulda, woulda, coulda ".


     The advice stands at wade off slowly with the communication, let the flirting progress as it surely will, and build the tension to where you'll find out how far he's willing to take it when you do meet face to face. He's already made the first step. I mean, really.... He's learning a piece of classical music he knows you love? Really? And you don't think that's flirting? Pretty bold if you ask me. Play along, and build on it. When it comes up again, (maybe in how he's coming along with it) say " That is very sweet of you, and, even romantic in a way." Not overly bold, but, honest. And, it opens the door for him to possibly come out with the "Yeah, but you're my cousin. If you weren't my cousin, blah, blah, blah." THEN, the ball is in YOUR court. At that point, you can say "What if I don't care that we ARE cousins? It's perfectly legal, and I do find you extremely engaging, and a good man." You will find out very quickly if he's mature enough then.....;) That's when you enter into the territory of what we around here call "The Talk." :D:D:D Usuallly best done face to face, but, sometimes you have to work with what you have, and save the rest for the face time.......

    • Upvote 1

  8. Anon,

     Please DO calm down. You don't mention where you are, and I'm not going to either, but, as a mod, I can, and did, have a little peek. Your parents are WRONG. So far as we know, second cousins are legal to marry anywhere in the world, and, provided my index is correct, where you are, even FIRST cousins are perfectly legal to marry. You DO NOT have to end it, you just have to go to the information pages on the main site, get you and her up to speed, then, your parents, and anyone else who would care to discourage you. If they reject the facts, well, as we say around here, "You can't save them all." They'll either come around, or they won't. Their opinion of the facts doesn't change the facts, and their opinion of your relationship is NOT your problem. It's theirs......js

     Now, get her on here, show her this thread, and the info on genetics, religion, and laws on the main pages here on the site. Show her this, and, if she does read it, I would strongly encourage her to reconsider, and not throw away the chance at happiness over someone else's foolishness or ignorance.

  9. Laraeaf,

     It's been a while since I've had a moment to jump in on here, so, (as the long term members know well) this could get windy as I catch up.

    First things first. You're 24, and at what I consider a very good age to consider going down this road. You don't mention Elliot's age, but, I'll go ahead and assume he's within a couple years or so of your age. You don't mention where you are, as a mod I can have a little peek, but, with your mentioning Melbourne, and subtle nuances in your English, I'll assume Australia. First cousins are legal to marry there, and, so far as we know, second cousins are legal everywhere in the world, although there are areas where the social stigma would be much greater than Australia. It would seem the 20 hr road trip would end up being your bigger hurdle to cross if you do decide to pursue this. LDR's become cumbersome in very short order. Not insurmountable, as you can read in other stories here, but, it requires both to be on the same page. Which will bring us to further issues....

     It would behoove you to first determine if Elliot does in fact share your feelings. There is a sticky thread here on finding out if a cousin shares the feelings and sharing yours with them. The Reader's Digest version usually boils down to a conversation involving what we call "the old tried and true" "If you weren't my cousin, __________" line. You haven't messaged, nor has he, and you feel he's of a similar mindset on that part of it at least. So, why not go ahead and break the ice, text him telling him you were thinking of him, and, slowly test the waters. Keep the conversation casual, but, if there's already been subtle (and NOT so subtle) flirting, the distance will allow for such to inevitably start up again. Play along. You'll know the time to drop the "If you weren't my cousin" line. By his response, you'll know his feelings. I doubt he would freak out because he's played along face to face. With the distance, I would even expect him to possibly be more bold. Don't be surprised if I'm right. Play along so far as your comfort level allows. I would think if he's truly as described, he won't be pushing you beyond that level anyhow, and both your comfort levels will increase as you proceed. And, all of this hinges on Elliot being unattached. You didn't mention that he is attached, and reading between the lines I assume at this time, you're unattached. Provided you are both available, I see no good reason other than the existing (unwarranted) stigma, and, of course, the physical distance, to not try. Both of which can be overcome with the proper resolve.


     So, IMHO, go ahead and text a friendly "Hello, how are you?" See how it goes. If it proceeds, do keep in touch here, and let us know. You need not get overly specific, but, if you do have specific questions, we'll do our best to answer them. Several of us are easily old enough to be your parents, so, chances are, we've 'been there,done that', and can hold your hands and walk you through it. One of the first things I would do if you do find out Elliot has similar feelings, would be to share the link to this site, to get him up to speed on facts presented here as well. Then, the two of you can make a fully informed decision as to how you wish to proceed. If it does turn into a relationship, I'll do my best to give advice on the 'must do's' and probably plenty of the 'what NOT to do's' as well. In my current situation though, I'm not going to be nearly as good at it as I was just a couple years ago. I've had life events in the last year and several months which have left me considerably more jaded than I would care to be, and I wouldn't want to let that affect my advice or your decisions. There are several of the girls here who CAN give you most excellent advice on such matters however, and I would gladly defer to them.....


     So, test the waters a little, and Good Luck, M'Dear......

  10. LadyC,

     You may very well be correct. Oddly enough, although they are different IP's, the two posts you removed links from resolve to Toronto. Perhaps we have a mill open there starting accounts. Now, however, they are actually posting on topic. Since their posts do tend to be somewhat relevant, I've been leaving them as well, and, if I see them, I'll do as you have, and edit them.


  11. Redfield,

     Lucky you. You get my broken record speech.

     First, focus on your schooling, and encourage her to do the same. You don't have to be rocket scientists, but you can learn a trade or skill that will allow you to make a pretty decent living. It will be very important to be in a position of independence should anything come of this, and family have drama over it. You know, their roof, their rules, your roof, your rules....

     Second, put all of this on the back burner. Once you are in the same area as her, you can have her show you around. Build the friendship. Keep your feelings to yourself, but keep your eyes open for subtle clues from her that she may have similar feelings. If she does, and should by some chance be bold enough to voice her feelings, at that point, you can spill too. DO NOT MOVE BEFORE THAT. If you see subtle things you think MAY indicate such feelings on her part, as cliche as it is, you can always go with the "If you weren't my cousin, ___________" line. Fill in the blank as circumstances dictate. Who knows, SHE may come out with that line to you. If so, you can agree, then go into how it isn't so totally out of the question as everyone has been led to believe. If you seem genuinely concerned for her, but not necessarily THAT into her, it will ease her mind to the point she may start to see you in such a light. If you move too quick, or get clingy, you're apt to turn her off, possibly forever.  But, should it come out that there are mutual feelings, do keep the hormones in check, and keep your pants on. At least for the most part. You aren't 12, and in shorter order than you think, you will be 18, and adults. Some exploration wouldn't be unexpected. I'm an old fart, but I'm not stupid. I've killed a LOT of brain cells, but not so many that I don't recall being your age. I know how these situations play out. BUT, IF anything should develop, it REALLY behooves you to NOT get yourselves in a "parently" way, before you are emotionally and FINANCIALLY ready to do so. So, keep the shenanigans under control. If you don't, you risk major drama now that you may not face, (at least nearly so intensely) when you are say 20 to 22ish, as I generally recommend. It won't be easy. Initially, the sneaking around, and keeping it all on the down low IS very exciting. Eventually, it becomes drudgery. Realize too, that should something develop, the parents will pick up on it MUCH easier than you realize. It's probably not been as long for them as it has for me, since they were your age, and I'll assure you that if the two of you were in a room with me, I would know if there were feelings out of one or both of you. You'd have to be VERY slick for me to not pick up on it, and even slicker for them not to. They know you better than you know yourselves right now. Sux, but trust me when I tell you that. And again, this all hinges on her either having or developing similar feelings.


     If you find out at some point that you ARE both in the same place with the feelings, you're certainly old enough to set down and have what we around here generally call "The Talk". You know, the whole " Is this right, Where do we go from here, How do we do this" type of thing. At that point, both of you get on here, and look through all the info pages. Get up to speed on the facts. They are liable to be your only friends, at least initially. Know them well. Remember too that we are here to hold your hands and walk you through it, and (for the most part) the only stupid question is the you you didn't ask. As a mod, I have certain privileges, and I avail myself of them. One of them is that I can have a little peek at where our members and guests are. You didn't mention it, and trust me, I shan't either. However, where you are, AT LEAST TILL YOU MOVE, first cousins (which I'm assuming you are) ARE legal. It depends on what State you're moving to as to the legalities there. Once you get there, (or now if you want, you're perfectly anonymous here) let us know what State it is, and we'll let you know where you stand legally there. We aren't lawyers, and don't give legal advice, but, we have a pretty good grasp on such matters. If you could get yourself in a bind legally, we WILL be able to tell you that. Luckily, there aren't too terribly many States that fall into that category.  

     So, bottom line, focus on you, have her do the same. Encourage her even. Put this all on the back burner and down low until you see how it's going to play out when you get there. Go ahead, and ask her in a pm for her number if you want. Actually, give her yours and say "Hey Cuz, you know we're going to be moving there before long. Here's my number. Let me know about the place so I'm not totally lost with what's going on there when I get there." You know, cool about it, AND it builds the friendship. And puts the ball in her court, and the "power" of "educating" you about the place in her hands. Once you get there, play it by ear and see how it plays out.

     Good Luck, and keep in touch. We'll help you any way we can. If you start to screw up, we'll smack you in the back of the head too. We want you to succeed the right way, and will help you do that to the best of our ability.......

  12. Anjali Arya,

     First, for the 10,000th time here, I will tell you now, that there is no such thing as cousin sister or cousin brother. It is a cultural thing, and, I feel very confident in assuming you are from India, as that's the only place I know of that has this misguided view. Now that we have my pet peeve out of the way, let's dig a little deeper, shall we?

     If he is your father's cousin's son, then he is your SECOND cousin. SO FAR AS WE KNOW, 2nd cousins are legal to marry anywhere in the world. THAT SAID, India might would be the only exception I can think of. It will be up to you to look at the Hindu (I'll assume as well that is your religion) Marriage Act, to make sure how far out cousins are prohibited from marrying. I do know in North India, first cousins cannot marry, period. In South India, where it is culturally and historically been practiced, cross first cousins can marry, but not parallel first cousins. Ridiculous as well, but, it is what it is.

     So, my advice is to consult a family law attorney and determine if second cousins are legal like I'm thinking they are. If so, why worry about convincing them? If it's legal, go get married. If it's legal, what are they going to do about it? Legally, nothing. You should probably be prepared for MASSIVE drama worthy of Bollywood. They will probably cry and scream, threaten and cajole. They are liable to threaten to kill anyone from you two to themselves. BUT, IF IT'S LEGAL, it is YOUR lives to live, NOT THEIRS. You need to be firm, and stand your ground. Eventually they MAY see the advantages of you two being together. The angle I would use is that it would allow you two to better care for your parents as they get older. I do know that is as huge a cultural expectation as cousin marriages are culturally frowned upon. Using a positive cultural argument to outweigh a negative cultural bias may be your best argument to try to overcome the drama. 

  13. On 1/12/2017 at 3:35 PM, Serendipity said:

    You thought we needed your trip itinerary because........?


    Because he's a spammer. We've got the bots out of here. We've ended up where an actual person has to set down and make an account. Use to, there would be tons of accounts with links such as this, but never any posts. They get paid for each account they create, and for each click it generates. It was my pet peeve, and the reason I took a mod position. At one point, Boss left the site open, and EVERYONE was a mod. I sounded the alarm, but, while I had the mod privileges, I took the liberty of deleting nearly 300 or so of those type of accounts. The site was locked back down, but I was asked if I would like to be a mod, I accepted, and went through and deleted another couple hundred of those accounts, plus many more which had been created, but never used. Occasionally, there would be posts with links, most notoriously to something like "UK kitchen cabinets". I would promptly delete the threads. Once I got a handle on the similar domain ranges they came from, I blocked the whole range. I mean, Really? You're selling UK cabinets from Nigeria or Pakistan? Nah, I don't think so...!!! LOL. I've not looked lately to see how many spam accounts we have, but I have noticed a couple threads in which actual posts with links are posted. As the resident junk yard dog, I'm going to do a little sniffing around, and if I smell bs, I'll be dropping the hammer.

     I put my nose to the ground, and here's the deal on this member. This member has two accounts. "He" was warned back in October, or at the very least had his link removed from his post. I would say, warned as well, or needed mod/admin approval to post. So, now our friend is back. He has received another report over the link in this thread. Since some of his posts are not totally off topic, and pure spam, there IS the possibility he does happen to be as described, but, actually have an interest in our subject matter here. He is at the very least considerably more creative than our run of the mill spammer, and, for the moment, I'm amused. For that reason, I will not be swinging the banhammer just yet. My ears are peaked though, and I'm going to be looking around from the back of the '58 Edsel and '75 Pinto, to keep an eye out for shenanigans. I'll not bark, I'll just bite..... ;)

  14. Mick3,

     OK, we got you. We only need one post. It may take us a while to get to you, but, here goes. Unlike I'm known for, I'll try to make this short and sweet. I have a "broken record speech" to young members, but haven't the time to go into it now.

     Here's what you need to do. Put this all on the back burner. First of all, I should tell you that genetically and traditionally (up until a little over 100 yrs ago) it is NOT incest. You may as well get that out of your head now. In some places, LEGALLY, it's considered to be, but you are WAY short in the tooth in this deal to be worrying about that now, and I don't have time to have a peek as to what State you're in to see. If I do later, I'll get back to you. So, going forward, for now, put this ALL on the back burner. They are young. Keep in touch. Build the friendship. Do not be surprised if there is not flirting along the way, as they may very well see you as a "safe" outlet for practicing such skills on. Be that. A SAFE outlet for the steam. Encourage them as much as possible to focus on their studies and start deciding what they want to do for a living. Encourage them to get something beyond HS in the way of education. Something with decent pay and a demand.

     THEN, WHEN THEY ARE OLDER, for the love of God, PICK ONE. Do NOT bounce between sisters. For crying out loud, you would CERTAINLY be asking for MUCH more drama than you, in your young life to this point, could EVER imagine...........:lol:

  15. Cory,

     No, at least not legally without a judge ordering it. UNLESS, the phone is either in his name, or, on his account. Then, yes. But, to what avail? If he does, and goes to court, it makes him look like a creeper. If he does it illegally somehow, he's screwed. If it is his account, and he goes through the trouble, it makes hm look bad. It's sour grapes my friend. Let him hang himself. DO NOT play into his drama.

     If it was me, here's what I would do. I would copy the statute. I would give it to him. I would tell him "Have a good long look at this. Read it SEVERAL times till it sinks in. You are working yourself up over preconceived notions and old wives' tales. TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE KIDS. You need to stop it now. If you don't want to, and can't get over yourself, then do what you think you can LEGALLY, and WITHOUT all this BS and sour grapes. We'll gladly let the judge tell you to cut the crap, and then when you don't, we'll let him know you aren't, and HE can tune you up. We're just trying to save you a lot of wasted time and money. But, if you insist, be our guest. We're asking you nicely, and only for the sake of the kids. Your opinion of us is not our business. Your poisoning the kids minds (if he's actually dragging the kids into it, mind you) IS our concern. And, our ONLY concern. So, here it is, and, again, we're asking nicely....."  

  16. Cory,

     Then he's blowing out his piehole, and she needs to call him on it. Tell him to lawyer up, or shut up. If I were her, I would say "You haven't actually read the statute have you?" He obviously hasn't, or, he has minimal comprehension skills. If he says "Yes I have." Then she can say "Well, you didn't get it, and you had best have another look before you start wasting money." Hey, give him a copy! If he still insists, just tell him to lawyer up, because she's going to get one, and make him and his lawyer look like fools. In fact, I HAVE used that line before when I was threatened with the ex getting a lawyer and being pissy. My reply was "You get a lawyer, and I'll make you and him BOTH look like idiots." (She knew that would happen. She'd seen me do it before. :D) The reply? "What do you want?" So, I got what I wanted, and I didn't have to get a lawyer. And, I must say, I was still more than fair to her, and still asked for less than what the judge would have given me. I just lessened my pain, and, her attitude cost her several thousand that I WAS going to pay that I didn't have to. Like I said before, sometimes the best lessons learned are learned the hard way.....

  17. Simplycomplicated,

     Odd that we have two members of late from Illinois, asking questions of a legal nature. I'm from Illinois as well, and I'll give out the standard disclaimer (you already realize) about us not giving legal advice and blah, blah, blah. Now that that's out of the way, lets do try to walk through the technicalities. There are some "gray" areas, BUT, you MAY have a way around that.

     1 & 2) As far as the letter of the law, "by adoption" is NOT spelled out verbatim in the statute with regards to cousins. HOWEVER, you two are not related by adoption, you are "unrelated" by it, and still "related" by blood. "By the whole blood" actually. BUT, as you realize, there IS the exemption if one of the parties to the marriage is "permanently and irreversibly sterile." So, provided she can provide the county clerk a certificate signed by a licensed physician stating that, then, the county will issue you a marriage license.  

     3) As far as DCFS getting involved, of course, there is always that chance if her ex, or any busybody for that matter, wants to stir the puddin'. But, unless there is demonstrable proof of some sort of neglect or abuse, you two do NOT fall under the criminal incest statute, and would be considered the same as any other random couple. Should a determination otherwise happen, based solely on the fact that the two of you are cousins, any reasonably competent family law attorney could have that quashed in fairly short order. Would it be a headache? Yeah. Is there Tylenol for it? Yeah, but it comes out of your pocket. 

     4) If you were to provide said paperwork, and get married in Illinois, #3 goes away. I notice you mention "should we just move to Tennessee or...." Is Tennessee a viable option, for you to bring it up? I do kinda like Tennessee, as well as Georgia. If you've been in Illinois for any amount of time, (like, all your lives) I'll assume I need not tell you what a mess this State is in. You would certainly NOT be the first, nor the last to be shaggin' arse right on outta here. Although in your case, it would be for a rather unusual reason compared to the mostly strictly economic ones most folks site. Do keep in mind though, that if this ex of hers has court ordered visitation, he WOULD have standing to challenge the move, and you would have to make quite a compelling case to have a judge reverse a previous arrangement. Not unheard of mind you, I did it with the first wife and her ex back in the mid 80's. But, it cost me $$$ I certainly could have spent on other things. In the end, it was money well spent, because, even though the marriage didn't last, the job I went down there for was excellent for the resume', and I parleyed it into better work afterwards. I also think the judge realized that would most likely be the case, and factored that into his decision to alter the visitation. Because, he figured that IF we moved, and IF I got that under my belt, and IF we stayed together, it WOULD be in the long term best interest of not just me, but, her kids. Depending on what you have lined up, you may have a similar result. But, (as in my case) you can probably expect the butthurt, and accompanying drama out of her ex. It will also make the judge's decision easier if the two of you are already married, as opposed to just living together, or, moving to where you would be living together going forward. But then again, if you CAN get married here, and, other than to work around the gray areas and drama, would just as soon stay, then provide the paperwork, and get married. The paperwork stops the gray area, and the marriage license will slow, if not all but stop, the drama. Or, at least it should. I'd keep a copy handy to wave in the face of puddin' stirrers any time it started. You know..... "Look here. IT'S LEGAL..... Suck it up buttercup, and get over yourself. It's our life, NOT YOURS."   

     So, IMHO, there is a fairly easy way to meet the requirements of the law, and at that point, the decision to stay or go is purely economic, and hinges on how much money you have to put out in totality to make the move happen. Best of luck, and do let us know how things progress.......

  18. Cory,

     If she's going to be talking to a judge, then I'll assume she has a lawyer. If not, I'd advise that she get one. If she does have one, I would assume it would possibly be the one who did the divorce, or, arranged the custody and visitation to begin with. Either way, feel free to copy my reply, send it to her, and let her show it to her lawyer. He (or she) can go in to court, and say "Your Honor, this is much ado about nothing, at least LEGALLY. If they choose to have a relationship, there is NO difference LEGALLY than any other random person, OTHER THAN, at least for now, they cannot marry here. What we have here is sour grapes fueled by long held misconceptions, and if it would please the court, I can provide ample evidence to that end. The petitioner is wasting the time of the court, because there is no evidence whatsoever of any sort of neglect or abuse. Nor shall there be. That being the case, we would ask the court to NOT make any changes to the previous arrangement." Or, some such thing. Again, I'm NOT going to play lawyer, but it really isn't that difficult to make the case, going strictly by the law.

     I would also add, that any attorney willing to take his money to go to court without evidence of neglect or abuse is doing so only to humor him, and take his money. Let them. Sometimes the best lessons learned are those learned the hard way, when the facts are different than the perception. If his attorney is worth their salt, they will chuckle at him, tell him it isn't going to fly, and he should go home, shut up, and get over it. If they do anything other than that, they're milking him. Of course, she gets milked too, but, IMHO, it would be money well spent.......;)

  19. David,

     Your future is what you make of it, including all the twists and turns beyond your control that naturally go with it.

     I'd like to remind you again, when this dinner date happens, do not point out the elephant in the room. You let her point it out, if it gets pointed out. You do not want to push her toward going out of her comfort zone. You want to draw her into yours. If you seem needy or clingy over it, it will turn her off big time. If, on the other hand you are discrete about it, even to the point of nonchalant, it could make her question whether if, at some point in the future she DOES want to repeat that evening, if you care enough that you would go there again. If she thinks you would, but you could "take it or leave it", and aren't really lacking in that department, if she does feel something, she will want to compete for your attention, and will do so even if subconsciously. You WILL have to look her in the eyes as much as she will be able to, and you will need to be able to read what you see there, as well as any man is ever able to read a woman. No small feat, but, if you pay attention and keep your cool, you can do it.

     Here's kinda how it went when me and mine aired it out after all the years. Mind you, up until then, and we were MUCH more mature, we DID totally avoid the subject. But, when it came up finally, and we decided to talk it out, it pretty much started with me testing the waters. We had bounced around the edges of it two or three times before we actually sat down one night and totally aired it out. I began along the lines of "Yeah, it happened. Yeah, it was very intense, and got that way probably too quickly. But, I don't regret it, and if circumstances were what they were, I'd do the same thing again. And, if circumstances where what they were, and I knew then, what I know now, things may have been very different. But, they weren't, and here we are. I just want my best cousin back in touch on occasion." Then, it just sort of went from there, and we went into all the things we'd miss out on over the years, and, then, eventually got to the feelings that had been there all those years, and to the fact that (at the time) we BOTH were committed to others, and had no stomach for cheating. At that point, we knew how we felt, and always would, and were able to "run the elephant out of the room", and be back to where we were "before".

     You are young enough that you don't necessarily HAVE to wait 30 years to get around it, but pushing the issue is not going to help. If she touches on it, try some of how I went into it. You can leave out the "If I would have known what I know now" part, because you did realize it fairly quickly, and it hasn't made a difference, because she has refused to entertain the idea so far. And she may continue to refuse to. But, if she thinks you are like "Yeah, it happened, and I don't regret it, and if you asked me like you did, and that night being what it was, I WOULD do it again. But, it isn't the same, and here we are. I just want my favorite cousin back, and who knows where and what the future holds for either of us. I just don't want us to loose track, and I want you to be able to call me any time you need to. If I at all can, I'll do what I can for you, within reason." 

     With something along those lines, you let her know you care, but, you're not going to let it dictate your every waking moment, even if it still is for the time being. THAT will get better with time too. Trust me. But, it lets her know, that if she deep down DOES want to try it again, she'd best not wait too long, because you WILL move on, and the day will come that it won't matter whether she wants to or not, it ain't happening......

  20. RIVA,

     There is no real set time I would think, but, more of a point when things come together to where it could be or is becoming obvious. I personally would refrain so long as you are under your parents' roof, unless you have very ample indications that they would take it well. If they don't take it well, you could be out of their house. Which, by the way, is what I would recommend anyhow. What would be your prospects of getting a job in this nearby city where he is? I would be working toward that as soon as I could. If you can get work there, perhaps the two of you could get a place together. I always recommend that, and at least initially, get a two bedroom place. You have your room, and he has his. The actual sleeping arrangements are NOT for public, OR family consumption. It keeps up appearances, PLUS it DOES give each of you your own space. You'll find out just how important THAT can be, once the two of you are under the same roof, LOL. It also gives family time to adjust to the visual of the two of you together. Even though you may be moving faster than appearances indicate, it does give the impression that, even if there IS something going on, the two of you are making the effort to be discrete about it, until such time as it is plainly obvious. At that point, "inquiring minds will want to know", and you can spill, and let the cat fully out of the bag.....

  21. Dragan,

     You are certainly old enough to test the waters. We usually recommend what we call 'the old tried and true' "If you weren't my cousin, __________" line. Fill in the blank as is appropriate to you and your particular situation, and tone/direction of the conversation at the time. "I'd want you to be my GF", "Love to date you", etc. If perhaps this classical musician should come up again as a topic, you could segue into it that way.

     As a Mod, I can have a little peek as to where our members and guest who post are at. Not to be nosy in any way, mind you, but to determine the legality of such a relationship if it has or should happen. You didn't mention where you are, and trust me, I shan't either. But, you will be happy to know, (if you didn't already) that provided my index is correct, where you are, it is perfectly legal to pursue a relationship with her, up to, and including marriage. WAY out in front of where you are at this point, but one less thing to stress over if you do step it up.....

     While I typed this, MissPrice replied and has given you excellent insight as well....

  22. Cory,

     First, I'll reiterate what Nat said about us not being lawyers, and not giving legal advice. BUT, that said, here's the skinny in Illinois. Illinois has quietly stopped prosecuting cases of incest between consenting adults. I've not heard of a case going forward here in the last three or four years. Probably longer. Even with that, cousins were never on the list to begin with, other than, IIRC, an older cousin who was effectively in a supervisory/trusted guardian type role to a minor cousin. THAT, could possibly still get one in quite the bind. However, that does not seem to be the case here. Another word of advice for you would be to be sure you are never alone with these children of hers, if she has such an uninformed ex. Whenever he IS informed that it ISN'T criminal incest here in Illinois for two cousins to have whatever relationship they choose, short of marriage, he could try to accuse you of something out of spite. Do not put yourself in a situation where there would be any question as to whether such a thing even remotely could have occurred. Now, to the "short of marriage" part. Here in Illinois, as mentioned, cousins are NOT, and, (with the possible noted exception above, I'd have to go back and look at the exact verbiage) have NEVER been on the list considered to be criminal incest. But, here in Illinois, first cousins cannot marry, and, at least for now, until such clauses are struck down somewhere, anywhere, they cannot "skirt" by going elsewhere to marry, and then returning to Illinois. Illinois will still not recognize the marriage. So, basically, the ex can stir considerable puddin', but, without concrete evidence of some sort of neglect or abuse, the kids aren't going anywhere, and nobody is going to jail..... 

     That is not to say her ex isn't a big enough asshat to stir the puddin' to where you would have to have an attorney send him a "cut the crap" letter, spelling all of this out, and possible legal ramifications if he does not. It also does not guarantee that any State's Attorney or judge you may encounter would not have similar biases as her ex. However, when the rubber comes down to the road on the exact law of the matter, you'll NOT be going to jail for incest in the State of Illinois, and without some sort of evidence of neglect or abuse, the kids aren't going anywhere. Also, given the mess this State is in, I would think they have much bigger fish to fry than you....LOL 


     Grab a cold drink, and read through a little "dryness" here... I'll copy/pasta the statute for you.....



     (750 ILCS 5/212) (from Ch. 40, par. 212)
        Sec. 212. Prohibited Marriages.
        (a) The following marriages are prohibited:
            (1) a marriage entered into prior to the dissolution of an earlier marriage, civil union, or substantially similar legal relationship of one of the parties, unless the parties to the marriage are the same as the parties to a civil union and are seeking to convert their civil union to a marriage pursuant to Section 65 of the Illinois Religious Freedom Protection and Civil Union Act;
            (2) a marriage between an ancestor and a descendant or between siblings, whether the relationship is by the half or the whole blood or by adoption;
            (3) a marriage between an uncle and a niece, between an uncle and a nephew, between an aunt and a nephew, or between an aunt and a niece, whether the relationship is by the half or the whole blood;
            (4) a marriage between cousins of the first degree; however, a marriage between first cousins is not prohibited if:
                (i) both parties are 50 years of age or older; or
                (ii) either party, at the time of application for a marriage license, presents for filing with the county clerk of the county in which the marriage is to be solemnized, a certificate signed by a licensed physician stating that the party to the proposed marriage is permanently and irreversibly sterile;

    (I had forgot this part of Illinois's statute, allowing exceptions for first cousins. Hawk)

     (720 ILCS 5/11-11) (from Ch. 38, par. 11-11)
        Sec. 11-11. Sexual Relations Within Families.
        (a) A person commits sexual relations within families if he or she:
            (1) Commits an act of sexual penetration as defined in Section 11-0.1 of this Code; and
            (2) The person knows that he or she is related to the other person as follows:
               (i) Brother or sister, either of the whole blood or the half blood; or
               (ii) Father or mother, when the child, regardless of legitimacy and regardless of whether the child was of the whole blood or half-blood or was adopted, was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or
               (iii) Stepfather or stepmother, when the stepchild was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or
               (iv) Aunt or uncle, when the niece or nephew was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or
               (v) Great-aunt or great-uncle, when the grand-niece or grand-nephew was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or            (vi) Grandparent or step-grandparent, when the grandchild or step-grandchild was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed.
        (b) Sentence. Sexual relations within families is a Class 3 felony.
    (Source: P.A. 96-233, eff. 1-1-10; 96-1551, eff. 7-1-11.)


     IIRC, the other part about the "supervisory" role thing is in the actual "Sexual Crimes" section of the statute, and has enhanced penalties or spells out aggravating circumstances for such trusted parties, including family members, clergy, teachers, and so on.

  23. Guest Unknown,

     You're in the perfect position to get what was known around here as "Hawk's Broken Record Speech." Ready? Here goes.

     FIRST, you are young, and have your whole life ahead of you. You have no reason to rush. He's older, and will probably be in relationships of a much more serious nature than you are in any sort of position to begin at this point. Until such time as you are old enough, you need to focus on other things. Foremost being your schooling. You need to decide what you would like to do with your life, then take well planned steps to move toward those goals. Get or keep the grades up. Not everyone is going to be a rocket scientist or brain surgeon, but there are trades and occupations you can get in with much less strenuous study, which are very lucrative. Get yourself in a position to make your own way.

     In the mean time, stay in touch with this cousin. Do be sure to speak to him, and even ask advice. If he's in college, what's his major? Would he suggest something similar for you? Ask him if he thinks your choice of careers is a wise one, or, would he suggest something different. Chances are he will have insight on these things, and would be willing to share it with you. As time goes by, and you get older, depending on his relationship status, you could slip in our standard "break the ice, tried and true, test the waters" line of "You know, if you weren't my cousin, I'd ___________" Fill in the blank. Be your GF, go out with you, tell you to wait on me,.... whatever fits the conversation at the time. Just don't push too quick. You could prematurely get him interested, and, until you are of age, get him in quite the bind. Bide your time, stay in touch, build the friendship, and then, when you're ready, go for it.

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