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Posts posted by Hawk

  1. Dawn Louise,

    I wouldn't worry about the son having a meltdown over it.

    After our chat the other night, I would still focus on your end for now, if I were you. Once you figure out where you are, and where things are going, then I would consider how things would play out on the other side. Depending on your decisions, they may be a moot point.

  2. Dawn Louise,

    Though my boy HN is young, I couldn't agree more. I'm a couple years older than you, so I need not tell you the clock is ticking. He really should get on here and find out the facts, and go for something that makes him happy, i.e. you. You two have the potential to begin a most rewarding journey for the rest of your lives if you can get on the same page, and tell the naysayers to take a hike. You don't tell us where you are, so there ARE a few places that, at least for the time being, you could get yourselves in a bind legally. Other than that, some of the states that do not allow first cousins to marry do have a caveat based on age. Here in Illinois, it is 50yrs old. Even in Wisconsin, where you can be charged with incest, after age 65 (IIRC) you can legally marry. As HorrificNight said, get with him, and go to the main page of the site here. Get the facts, and then go forward and do try to be happy for the rest of your lives. He very well may be expecting much more drama than there would actually be too. If you know the facts, at your age, family is really going to be in a tight spot in treating you like naive children. If I were him, I would tell them they don't know the facts, and if they are unwilling to learn them, then he really has nothing more to say to them on the subject, and the conversation is over, and not open to further discussion. Much easier for a 48 year old man to do, than an eighteen year old.

    Actually, show him this thread, get him on here and let ME have a go at him. I have a feeling that after a little chat with me, I can ease his mind about all of this. As far as it not being natural, he will find that historically, I think it is close to 80% of all marriages have been between cousins. It is still very common, and preferred in many parts of the world. So, the "not natural" part falls short. It seems to him that it is not natural, because of misinformation on the subject that has become prevalent over the last several generations. That in no way means it is actually in some way unnatural...

  3. Ladies,

    Since I was first in this thread to the OP spammer, allow me to jump back in off topic, and ask you if you think this thread coming back to life in the last few days is because it is some sort of spam magnet, if you will? I see that besides the OP, there are two other spam accounts which have posted in this thread. It seems as if any new activity draws more spam accounts. Sorry for going so far off topic, but these accounts are REALLY a HUGE pet peeve of mine, and I'm trying to discern SOME way of ridding ourselves of them. This may be a clue......

    Carry on, it is actually an interesting question. BTW, back in the day, I may have chased the older women, but I didn't pursue any with a ring on EITHER ring finger, left OR right!!!! :laughter:

  4. I'm Lost,

    All I can tell you is you're going to have to stay on your toes. She may be sending you these hints as subtly as possible, or it could be as you suspect, and be nothing. I have a feeling there might just be at least a little something there. My suggestion is the next time she send something along these lines your way, be ready. The old tried and true "If you weren't my cousin....." is as good a way as any to test the waters.  Then see how she reacts. If it is negative, then you can always say "I did say IF, you know." If she reacts positively, my next words would be, "Well, actually, even though you are my cousin, I'd still go out with you. I wouldn't be THAT skeered about it." Either way, it gives an opening to the dialog. And I'll tell you right now, if there is as much on both side, you are going to have to have a LOT of dialog. We didn't, and a lot of the reason we aren't together, was we assumed we knew what the other was thinking, because we could just look in each others eyes and know. A little more "actually saying it" would have been extremely helpful. Oh, BTW, NEVER fail to actually say "I love you too" if she ever says that again.....

  5. TripleL,

    Wise Roma is wise, and quite perceptive herself. The confusion comes in with the "once removed" part not being fully understood on the part on you and your parents. Your dad's first cousin, (parent of your BF) is actually your first cousin once removed, as in one generation removed in the family tree. The same applies with him toward your dad. The initial relation is between your parents, being first cousins. You, being one generation down from that, are "once removed" from that initial relation. LOL, if I were you however, I would let them go ahead and continue to think of it as third cousins, what the heck. In their book, it is weird enough already, no need to take it to another level of silly. It sounds like you have put some thought into this, so stay on track, and let it play out slowly. If you two are around each other with family, don't be overly forward, or awkward either. They can read you better than you can. They will pick up on things you don't realize they are picking up on. Just act like good friends, who genuinely enjoy each others company. At this young age, that is what you want to do anyhow. Maybe just quietly set and play some vidya or something, and leave it at innocent paling around. All eyes will be on you, so tread lightly in as mature a manner as you can. It will help built the rapport you will need in the future.

  6. TripleL,

    First off, God doesn't disapprove of first cousins, and actually insisted on it on several occasions. Third cousins are WAY far down the line enough, so stop stressing over that part of it. Now, as to your parents. Should you be worried about them? Sure. You still live under their roofs, and so long as you do, they make the rules. Sux, but get use to it. The advice I'll give you is what I call my standard donation to the party. Keep in touch, and encourage each other in your schoolwork. If your grades are good, keep them up. If they aren't, GET them up. Keep your noses in the books, get an education first. Part of that education might as well be to study up on the main page of the site here. Get the facts. I know you will be impatient to get on with it, but I would also encourage the two of you to get some college or vocational training under your belts as well. Slowly build the relationship as you get smart. Put the actual "going for it" off until you are out on your own, or working, and able to get out on your own. Know this, it is very difficult for adults to hide such a relationship, it is nearly impossible for teens to do it. They may be trying to keep the two of you apart over the "cousin" factor, or the age factor, or a combination of both. Their only legitimate argument at this point is the age factor, they just don't know it yet. You need to be at the very least 18, and I would urge to to make it 20 or older before you wade off in the drama. Right now, they can make it extremely uncomfortable for the two of you. Maybe even to the point that they would cause one or both of you to surrender before you can even give it a chance. If you have worked hard, got good grades, kept your noses clean, and made you best effort at this, they will be in a much weaker position to make an even weaker (invalid) argument. You will be able to own the whole situation, and if they still insist on nonsense, then leave, and go have a happy, drama free life. You have to have yourselves in a position to be able to do that though. If you are still 25 and living at home, you are still going to be in the same boat. Do what we call around here "putting it on the back burner." That doesn't mean turn the heat off and let it go cold, it means turn the heat WAY down, and let it simmer, and come together, like delicious soup. The two of you get on the same page with the things I've said here, and in due time, you will have a firm foundation to build a long and happy life. If you are going to be closer soon, it is even more important to keep this on the down low. Take a deep breath, clear the fog, and take your steps slowly. If you do, you should be able to do this in it's own good time.

  7. purplexy54,

    I didn't mean to imply they don't love you M'dear, only not as much as you love them. With love comes respect. You respect them MUCH more than they do you, if they are willing to disown you over this. You are concerned MUCH more about their happiness than they are about yours. You will eventually find yourself manipulated by them in other instances as well if you don't live your life for you at some point. Might as well start now. Please listen to me and starclimber. Let's get you educated first, then move forward. Let's look at an instance of why I want you to do so. Let's say you do decide, drama be damned, you love your cousin and want to spend your life with him. You are standing there with an advanced degree in hand. They start the wailing and gnashing of teeth. You look them in the eyes, and say "Look, I have this degree here. I've been to school. I'm not some uneducated child you are talking to. I did learn how to study a subject, and I have studied the subject of cousin couples. While I love you and respect you, you are wrong. If you are willing to learn the facts, I will show you. If you wish to be blissful in your ignorance, that is fine as too, but I know better and I will NOT listen to it." Can you see how, it may not keep them from going off on you, but it puts you in a much better position to make your case?

    I also agree with starclimber on the tarot cards. You may find yourself vulnerable to them if you are not careful. You might as well go ahead and toss them in the trash before you put any faith in them at all. Look to make decisions based on the knowledge you have gained, and not reading things into the random turning of cards, or rolling of dice. I personally think they are dangerous, but at the least they should not be trusted for life changing decisions. Please just go ahead and listen to us. We are not giving you random thoughts here, to be interpreted. We are telling you these things from real life experience, where we see you potentially making mistakes you can avoid.

  8. purplexy54,

    Calm down, you are not going to burn in hell for being the worst daughter ever. Stick with your plan of putting any relationship with either on the back burner for now. Get you in a better situation first, then start figuring out exactly who you really, truly want to spend the rest of your life with. If your family is willing to disown you over your cousin, they do not love you as much as you love them. That is the bottom line. They may think they are making you do what is right, but they get to make their choices, not yours. If they will not look at the facts and the religious aspect of it honestly, then it is all about manipulating you into what they want, regardless of your happiness. That is NOT loving you, as much as you love them. Ignore their drama for now, get you in position to ultimately make a decision. If you let them live your life for you, I will tell you now, you will at some point say "what if."

    Disconnect with both right now, and go be alone and cry if you feel like it. But when you are done crying, take a deep breath and realize you are ultimately going to have to live your life for you, then go live life your way.....

  9. purplexy54,

    I'm proud of you child. Had I thought things out like you have, I would have had a much different life. I don't regret it to where I would want to change it now, but I would have done as you are and take my time. The big difference is, back then there was no sort of resource like this to just google and find. Don't jump into anything until you are ready. If you really feel so strongly about your cousin, you must have this same conversation with him. He needs to know you are interested, but you are just not yet at the point you are willing to go further. I posted to another new member who is of Puerto Rican decent. She is somewhat unsure as to where it is heading as well. I'll link that thread for you, and see if anything sounds familiar.


    See if my advice to her might be what you are coming to on your own, and be of further help to you. I have a feeling there are issues I brought up for her to consider, that you may wish to modify to your particular situation. Age wise, you are right about at what I consider a "sweet spot" to start considering just where it is you want to go, and what you want to do with your life. You have been an adult for a couple years and are starting to see the world for what it is, but still young enough that it lays at your feet. I think for the moment, you have started to lay out a good plan.

  10. veeruization,

    How wonderful to have you here. We have been at a lost for advice for our members from India. Please stay in touch here, as much as your professional obligations allow. I realize you cannot constantly be giving free legal advice and still make a living, but we have members here who are really in a bad way. I have hoped for some time that someone in your position would come along to help them out. I don't know an appropriate way to tell you in your culture or religion, so I will say it from mine. God Bless You..... :ok:

  11. Jessie,

    Good to see you popping in when you are able. It is inspiring that with (and, may I say, because of) this bitter cross you bear, you are able to bring such levity to those who may have their doubts.

    May I be so bold as to speak for many others here, and say our thoughts are still with you as you go forward....

  12. daughterofeve,

    You ask a question that in the end only you can answer. You are here at this site, know the premise, so you know what the standard answer will be. Being happily married to someone other than my cousin, I can tell you what MY answer to the question is. No. Back in the day, had me and my cousin decided to pursue it, the drama would not have been more than we could handle, or anywhere near what she expected it might have been. Had we been willing, would I have? Sure. Would we have had our ups and downs like everybody else? Probably, it seems to go with the territory. We do however have that, "look in each others eyes, read each others minds, finish each others sentences" thing  between us that seems so common. That would have helped probably, but in certain circumstances could have been an issue maybe, I don't know. And yeah, we do certainly understand how crazy our family is!!! :laughter:

    I see from your other posts that you are wisely waiting to see how his relationship goes. That is drama you don't need, and, by doing as you are, can easily be avoided. If she is still in love with her ex, he needs to let her go, so she can put some sort of closure to that without him being the fall guy in the end. But, as you have noted, that is for him to decide and you need not push him. He knows it, whether he wants to admit it or not. 

    Being in Europe, there is no legal reason you two cannot be together. He should know, that if he does want to marry you, you can get married. Since there is little chance of recent cousin couples in your family tree, he needs to know there is no genetic reason that you two CAN'T have kids.

    Don't worry about being in denial, or feeling like a nutcase, we're all pretty much nutcases to one degree or another!  :wacko: You have noticed I see, that these things can get very intense, very rapidly. That is not so out of the ordinary either. It sounds like you may have to hit the brakes a little here and see how this relationship of his works it's way out. Should he keep questioning the viability of a relationship with you, send him the link to here and have him take a look around, and see if it eases his mind on that part of the drama at least. It will then be up to the two of you to set down and decide if it is really worth it.

  13. as747,

    I don't know nearly enough about your culture to give any sort of advice you seek. That is probably the reason many here, who are for the most part from the US, have not replied. I do however know enough about life to agree with SurvingFortheBest. You really have one of two options. Be happy, and marry the one you love, or be miserable, and marry the one who will make your Mother happy. If it were me, I would do everything in my power to become a citizen of the United States, move to a state where it is legal, and be welcomed to this great melting pot we call America. I know full well, this is as daunting a task as being from your culture and in love with your cousin. I really think that the only way things are going to change in your culture is for the fearless to be brave and buck the system, and show that, while it isn't for everyone, there is nothing wrong with taking your cousin for a mate, and life partner. Do you really want to make your family happy enough to be forced to marry someone they want you to, who you will resent, and not love, and then for the rest of your life, resent your family every time you see them? Just so they can have a smile on their face, while, the whole time you would like nothing more than to choke them for what they have made you do? And what of the mate they would choose for you? Could they really be happy, knowing you were basically blackmailed into marrying them? I would not live like that. Maybe that is a product of being raised in this society, where you make your own way, and don't have to be forced into any relationship by anyone. You make your choice, and you live with it. A mother who would choose tradition, based on some false sense of,,,,,I don't understand what, over the happiness of her child, has a problem I cannot understand either. I'm not with my cousin, but it isn't because our family would have stopped us. Our mother's knew something was going on at the time too. Whether they agreed or not, their opinion was basically "As long as you make each other happy."(At least I remember my Mom saying something to that affect when she found out, and her Mom didn't say anything, just sat there with a funny grin, speechless.) That is how a mother should feel. As in, "I may not agree, but if it makes you happy..." It sounds like family in your culture says, "I want you to be happy, but I want me to be happy MORE." That part of it, I just don't get. Anyone who tells you "It doesn't matter what you want, you need to make ME happy", really doesn't have your best interest at heart. You may do it your way, and fall flat on your face, and they may say "I told you so." Unless you try and succeed, or try and fail, how will you know if you can do it or not?

    As aspiring medical professionals, you two surely know that bloodletting use to be the traditional first response to most any ailment. That did not change until society realized the treatment was worse than the disease. I dare say most all enlightened people now know that tradition was foolishness, based on misguided notions of what was right. A similar situation is happening with you. So long as these traditions, not based on fact or science, continue, good folks like you will suffer bad treatment. 

  14. lovesickmomma,

    Maggie, I once got chapped a little here for suggesting an older female cuz find a way to stay in contact with a younger male cuz. However, he was under 18. Since that is not an issue, you can stay in touch with him the best you can. HOWEVER, his parents are well within their rights to take his phone, car and college $$$ if he (and by extension, you) piss them off. The chance of you being in the same town as him and it not being found out are virtually nil.

    I would say the smart thing to do, would be to cool the jets a little, let things calm down, stay in touch as best you can, and let him get his school out of the way without you two having to figure out how to pay for it. Even if you have a job, think of this: You have a young child, and are a single mother, for all intents and purposes. An expensive proposition I hear. (I don't have kids, but I've been Dad twice, so I DO know....) On top of that, you are going to take on tuition and all the expenses of a student? Another expensive proposition I hear. Hope you have a real good job....

    You are not so far into this that a little sneaking around wouldn't be exciting. Just remember, keep your heads on straight, and you deal with your drama, make sure it doesn't get in the way of his schooling, and take it slowly. Once he is out of school, there is a better than average chance he (and by extension, you) will be moving SOMEWHERE to work anyhow. Get that all set up and ready to go before you do any "spilling the beans" to the family. They will most likely be furious at the two of you for "using them for their $$$", but they have offered, and so long as you don't get in the way of his grades, they are getting what they are paying for.

    Speaking of which, maybe the admins can move this interaction of ours to the main part of the Help/Advice page so as we do not totally hijack this thread..... (Hello Boss, CM, or Lady C????)

  15. Maggie,


    If your mothers are first cousins, you would be second cousins. (Been there....)

    When I was 17/18 my GF was 23. I shan't judge that part of the equation. I don't know how long you have been married, and I certainly won't guess at the circumstances. There do seem to be some issues though. I would suggest you deal with these things before you go further with Cuz.

    Biblically, you are on solid ground, and legally, nearly anywhere in the world you are on solid legal ground. The family drama, don't worry about. They will either get over it, or get under it. Second cousins are legal in all 50. ( I ASS U ME you are in the US.) Biblically, the shacking up after his first year of college is an issue, but I've shacked up with all three wives, several GF's, and would have with Cuz if she had so desired. I'll remain neutral there as well, except to say that I was that age, shacking up back and forth a week at a time between my place and 23 yr old GF's place, and school suffered. By the time me and Cuz had our moment, school was all but over for me. If you really want to do right by Cuz, KEEP HIS ASS IN SCHOOL at least till he gets an associates degree in SOMETHING! Get your drama under control at the same time, and hopefully, you will both come out with meshing gears and be on the run from there. There really is something to be said for that particular age spread, in that the difference in life expectancy jives to where it has the potential for a long life together, and not much time apart at the end.....

    Good luck, and I'll also say, God Bless........since you are thus inclined. :)

  16. heetz08,

    OK, ok, ok, I won't poke you! How about I gently nudge you a little though? REMEMBER, YOU AREN'T GOING TO GET LEGAL ADVICE HERE. I just want you to see what the law says for yourself. That way you don't end up going off half cocked and making assumptions not based in reality. Again, you may need an attorney to interpret the gibberish that is the language of the law these days. Reading it over a few times usually helps bring what it is actually saying down to the kitchen table, if you will.

    Now,PROVIDED this is a current version, I don't see "cousin" of ANY degree listed here. HOWEVER, you seem to be on the right trail of the wabbit here.

    Now, look at your cross references. See anything that might be of interest? Humm? You don't say anything about being the athletic type, so you can probably skip title 5. Next, you have domestic relations. Now this may very well be worthwhile reading, depending on your current or future situation. Seems like you might want to poke around in Title 23 a little, and look at those sections and see what you find. Next, you have Judiciary and Judicial Procedure. This would seem to be what you are worried about. Go ahead and poke around in those sections of Title 42. Here is another caveat. This will undoubtedly be some of the driest, most unintelligible dribble you have ever read. This is what law school is all about, translating this sort of thing. The section in title 44 (Law and Justice) will probably be as bad or worse! However, again, PROVIDED this is all current, and cousins are not actually listed here, I would not stress unduly over those two sections. Go poke around in Title 23. Domestic Relations probably has the answers to your root questions. There will most likely be, in one of those sections, the restrictions on everything from parent/child marriage to first cousin marriage. I would bet one of those sections will deal with declaring a marriage null and void, and the circumstances that trigger such action. The info on the main page has the marriage stuff listed under a Section 1703. It does not say what title of the code that is in. It may be Title 23, Domestic Relations. If you look at that page,(from the link on the main page here) it says cousin marriages ARE voidable, to an extent. A challenge must be made while the parties are alive. If the marriage was not dissolved during the lifetime of the parties, heirs, (or whoever) cannot come back at some later time and challenge it. Here again, PROVIDED this section has not been amended since the time it was noted here.

    You are on the right track here, keep digging. You may have to read this stuff several times to really get the gist of what it is and (in this case) is not saying.

    Talk to friends. Do you know someone who has gone through a divorce? See who had the better lawyer, and see what it would cost to spend a little time with this lawyer. Lady C was exactly right in that speaking to a lawyer won't get you in trouble with the law, those conversations are privileged. The more of the law you know up front though will not hurt the conversation. You can just ask for clarification on anything you don't fully get. By the looks of the wording in section 4302 you quote here, you would talk to a family law attorney as opposed to a criminal law attorney. Family law attorneys are usually pretty well up on these sort of things. I doubt voiding a marriage comes up all that often, but most of them will have probably dealt with a case or know of a case where it has came up.

    Like I said in the other thread, Happy Hunting. You're getting warmer....


  17. CM,

    I'm well aware of that!!! I went through it with the first ex when we went to Georgia back in 1986. It cost $1000 back then to modify the visitation for her two sons. However, if I'm reading this right, the ex in question already lives in Ohio. Since she is already in another state, unless it is like 10mi. right across the state line, there might not be much difference between Pennsylvania or Maryland. That is sort of where I was coming from. Clue us in a little here hes4me.......

  18. hes4me,

    If there are jobs for you two in Maryland, I would hoppy skip my behind right on over there. Then you could be legal, and the ex could shove it.

    I'm not sure how jobs are out there, but I'm back to work after being off almost a year and a half. It does seem to be picking up a little around here. Best of luck to you all.


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