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Posts posted by Hawk

  1. Simplycomplicated,

     Odd that we have two members of late from Illinois, asking questions of a legal nature. I'm from Illinois as well, and I'll give out the standard disclaimer (you already realize) about us not giving legal advice and blah, blah, blah. Now that that's out of the way, lets do try to walk through the technicalities. There are some "gray" areas, BUT, you MAY have a way around that.

     1 & 2) As far as the letter of the law, "by adoption" is NOT spelled out verbatim in the statute with regards to cousins. HOWEVER, you two are not related by adoption, you are "unrelated" by it, and still "related" by blood. "By the whole blood" actually. BUT, as you realize, there IS the exemption if one of the parties to the marriage is "permanently and irreversibly sterile." So, provided she can provide the county clerk a certificate signed by a licensed physician stating that, then, the county will issue you a marriage license.  

     3) As far as DCFS getting involved, of course, there is always that chance if her ex, or any busybody for that matter, wants to stir the puddin'. But, unless there is demonstrable proof of some sort of neglect or abuse, you two do NOT fall under the criminal incest statute, and would be considered the same as any other random couple. Should a determination otherwise happen, based solely on the fact that the two of you are cousins, any reasonably competent family law attorney could have that quashed in fairly short order. Would it be a headache? Yeah. Is there Tylenol for it? Yeah, but it comes out of your pocket. 

     4) If you were to provide said paperwork, and get married in Illinois, #3 goes away. I notice you mention "should we just move to Tennessee or...." Is Tennessee a viable option, for you to bring it up? I do kinda like Tennessee, as well as Georgia. If you've been in Illinois for any amount of time, (like, all your lives) I'll assume I need not tell you what a mess this State is in. You would certainly NOT be the first, nor the last to be shaggin' arse right on outta here. Although in your case, it would be for a rather unusual reason compared to the mostly strictly economic ones most folks site. Do keep in mind though, that if this ex of hers has court ordered visitation, he WOULD have standing to challenge the move, and you would have to make quite a compelling case to have a judge reverse a previous arrangement. Not unheard of mind you, I did it with the first wife and her ex back in the mid 80's. But, it cost me $$$ I certainly could have spent on other things. In the end, it was money well spent, because, even though the marriage didn't last, the job I went down there for was excellent for the resume', and I parleyed it into better work afterwards. I also think the judge realized that would most likely be the case, and factored that into his decision to alter the visitation. Because, he figured that IF we moved, and IF I got that under my belt, and IF we stayed together, it WOULD be in the long term best interest of not just me, but, her kids. Depending on what you have lined up, you may have a similar result. But, (as in my case) you can probably expect the butthurt, and accompanying drama out of her ex. It will also make the judge's decision easier if the two of you are already married, as opposed to just living together, or, moving to where you would be living together going forward. But then again, if you CAN get married here, and, other than to work around the gray areas and drama, would just as soon stay, then provide the paperwork, and get married. The paperwork stops the gray area, and the marriage license will slow, if not all but stop, the drama. Or, at least it should. I'd keep a copy handy to wave in the face of puddin' stirrers any time it started. You know..... "Look here. IT'S LEGAL..... Suck it up buttercup, and get over yourself. It's our life, NOT YOURS."   

     So, IMHO, there is a fairly easy way to meet the requirements of the law, and at that point, the decision to stay or go is purely economic, and hinges on how much money you have to put out in totality to make the move happen. Best of luck, and do let us know how things progress.......

  2. Cory,

     If she's going to be talking to a judge, then I'll assume she has a lawyer. If not, I'd advise that she get one. If she does have one, I would assume it would possibly be the one who did the divorce, or, arranged the custody and visitation to begin with. Either way, feel free to copy my reply, send it to her, and let her show it to her lawyer. He (or she) can go in to court, and say "Your Honor, this is much ado about nothing, at least LEGALLY. If they choose to have a relationship, there is NO difference LEGALLY than any other random person, OTHER THAN, at least for now, they cannot marry here. What we have here is sour grapes fueled by long held misconceptions, and if it would please the court, I can provide ample evidence to that end. The petitioner is wasting the time of the court, because there is no evidence whatsoever of any sort of neglect or abuse. Nor shall there be. That being the case, we would ask the court to NOT make any changes to the previous arrangement." Or, some such thing. Again, I'm NOT going to play lawyer, but it really isn't that difficult to make the case, going strictly by the law.

     I would also add, that any attorney willing to take his money to go to court without evidence of neglect or abuse is doing so only to humor him, and take his money. Let them. Sometimes the best lessons learned are those learned the hard way, when the facts are different than the perception. If his attorney is worth their salt, they will chuckle at him, tell him it isn't going to fly, and he should go home, shut up, and get over it. If they do anything other than that, they're milking him. Of course, she gets milked too, but, IMHO, it would be money well spent.......;)

  3. David,

     Your future is what you make of it, including all the twists and turns beyond your control that naturally go with it.

     I'd like to remind you again, when this dinner date happens, do not point out the elephant in the room. You let her point it out, if it gets pointed out. You do not want to push her toward going out of her comfort zone. You want to draw her into yours. If you seem needy or clingy over it, it will turn her off big time. If, on the other hand you are discrete about it, even to the point of nonchalant, it could make her question whether if, at some point in the future she DOES want to repeat that evening, if you care enough that you would go there again. If she thinks you would, but you could "take it or leave it", and aren't really lacking in that department, if she does feel something, she will want to compete for your attention, and will do so even if subconsciously. You WILL have to look her in the eyes as much as she will be able to, and you will need to be able to read what you see there, as well as any man is ever able to read a woman. No small feat, but, if you pay attention and keep your cool, you can do it.

     Here's kinda how it went when me and mine aired it out after all the years. Mind you, up until then, and we were MUCH more mature, we DID totally avoid the subject. But, when it came up finally, and we decided to talk it out, it pretty much started with me testing the waters. We had bounced around the edges of it two or three times before we actually sat down one night and totally aired it out. I began along the lines of "Yeah, it happened. Yeah, it was very intense, and got that way probably too quickly. But, I don't regret it, and if circumstances were what they were, I'd do the same thing again. And, if circumstances where what they were, and I knew then, what I know now, things may have been very different. But, they weren't, and here we are. I just want my best cousin back in touch on occasion." Then, it just sort of went from there, and we went into all the things we'd miss out on over the years, and, then, eventually got to the feelings that had been there all those years, and to the fact that (at the time) we BOTH were committed to others, and had no stomach for cheating. At that point, we knew how we felt, and always would, and were able to "run the elephant out of the room", and be back to where we were "before".

     You are young enough that you don't necessarily HAVE to wait 30 years to get around it, but pushing the issue is not going to help. If she touches on it, try some of how I went into it. You can leave out the "If I would have known what I know now" part, because you did realize it fairly quickly, and it hasn't made a difference, because she has refused to entertain the idea so far. And she may continue to refuse to. But, if she thinks you are like "Yeah, it happened, and I don't regret it, and if you asked me like you did, and that night being what it was, I WOULD do it again. But, it isn't the same, and here we are. I just want my favorite cousin back, and who knows where and what the future holds for either of us. I just don't want us to loose track, and I want you to be able to call me any time you need to. If I at all can, I'll do what I can for you, within reason." 

     With something along those lines, you let her know you care, but, you're not going to let it dictate your every waking moment, even if it still is for the time being. THAT will get better with time too. Trust me. But, it lets her know, that if she deep down DOES want to try it again, she'd best not wait too long, because you WILL move on, and the day will come that it won't matter whether she wants to or not, it ain't happening......

  4. RIVA,

     There is no real set time I would think, but, more of a point when things come together to where it could be or is becoming obvious. I personally would refrain so long as you are under your parents' roof, unless you have very ample indications that they would take it well. If they don't take it well, you could be out of their house. Which, by the way, is what I would recommend anyhow. What would be your prospects of getting a job in this nearby city where he is? I would be working toward that as soon as I could. If you can get work there, perhaps the two of you could get a place together. I always recommend that, and at least initially, get a two bedroom place. You have your room, and he has his. The actual sleeping arrangements are NOT for public, OR family consumption. It keeps up appearances, PLUS it DOES give each of you your own space. You'll find out just how important THAT can be, once the two of you are under the same roof, LOL. It also gives family time to adjust to the visual of the two of you together. Even though you may be moving faster than appearances indicate, it does give the impression that, even if there IS something going on, the two of you are making the effort to be discrete about it, until such time as it is plainly obvious. At that point, "inquiring minds will want to know", and you can spill, and let the cat fully out of the bag.....

  5. Dragan,

     You are certainly old enough to test the waters. We usually recommend what we call 'the old tried and true' "If you weren't my cousin, __________" line. Fill in the blank as is appropriate to you and your particular situation, and tone/direction of the conversation at the time. "I'd want you to be my GF", "Love to date you", etc. If perhaps this classical musician should come up again as a topic, you could segue into it that way.

     As a Mod, I can have a little peek as to where our members and guest who post are at. Not to be nosy in any way, mind you, but to determine the legality of such a relationship if it has or should happen. You didn't mention where you are, and trust me, I shan't either. But, you will be happy to know, (if you didn't already) that provided my index is correct, where you are, it is perfectly legal to pursue a relationship with her, up to, and including marriage. WAY out in front of where you are at this point, but one less thing to stress over if you do step it up.....

     While I typed this, MissPrice replied and has given you excellent insight as well....

  6. Cory,

     First, I'll reiterate what Nat said about us not being lawyers, and not giving legal advice. BUT, that said, here's the skinny in Illinois. Illinois has quietly stopped prosecuting cases of incest between consenting adults. I've not heard of a case going forward here in the last three or four years. Probably longer. Even with that, cousins were never on the list to begin with, other than, IIRC, an older cousin who was effectively in a supervisory/trusted guardian type role to a minor cousin. THAT, could possibly still get one in quite the bind. However, that does not seem to be the case here. Another word of advice for you would be to be sure you are never alone with these children of hers, if she has such an uninformed ex. Whenever he IS informed that it ISN'T criminal incest here in Illinois for two cousins to have whatever relationship they choose, short of marriage, he could try to accuse you of something out of spite. Do not put yourself in a situation where there would be any question as to whether such a thing even remotely could have occurred. Now, to the "short of marriage" part. Here in Illinois, as mentioned, cousins are NOT, and, (with the possible noted exception above, I'd have to go back and look at the exact verbiage) have NEVER been on the list considered to be criminal incest. But, here in Illinois, first cousins cannot marry, and, at least for now, until such clauses are struck down somewhere, anywhere, they cannot "skirt" by going elsewhere to marry, and then returning to Illinois. Illinois will still not recognize the marriage. So, basically, the ex can stir considerable puddin', but, without concrete evidence of some sort of neglect or abuse, the kids aren't going anywhere, and nobody is going to jail..... 

     That is not to say her ex isn't a big enough asshat to stir the puddin' to where you would have to have an attorney send him a "cut the crap" letter, spelling all of this out, and possible legal ramifications if he does not. It also does not guarantee that any State's Attorney or judge you may encounter would not have similar biases as her ex. However, when the rubber comes down to the road on the exact law of the matter, you'll NOT be going to jail for incest in the State of Illinois, and without some sort of evidence of neglect or abuse, the kids aren't going anywhere. Also, given the mess this State is in, I would think they have much bigger fish to fry than you....LOL 


     Grab a cold drink, and read through a little "dryness" here... I'll copy/pasta the statute for you.....



     (750 ILCS 5/212) (from Ch. 40, par. 212)
        Sec. 212. Prohibited Marriages.
        (a) The following marriages are prohibited:
            (1) a marriage entered into prior to the dissolution of an earlier marriage, civil union, or substantially similar legal relationship of one of the parties, unless the parties to the marriage are the same as the parties to a civil union and are seeking to convert their civil union to a marriage pursuant to Section 65 of the Illinois Religious Freedom Protection and Civil Union Act;
            (2) a marriage between an ancestor and a descendant or between siblings, whether the relationship is by the half or the whole blood or by adoption;
            (3) a marriage between an uncle and a niece, between an uncle and a nephew, between an aunt and a nephew, or between an aunt and a niece, whether the relationship is by the half or the whole blood;
            (4) a marriage between cousins of the first degree; however, a marriage between first cousins is not prohibited if:
                (i) both parties are 50 years of age or older; or
                (ii) either party, at the time of application for a marriage license, presents for filing with the county clerk of the county in which the marriage is to be solemnized, a certificate signed by a licensed physician stating that the party to the proposed marriage is permanently and irreversibly sterile;

    (I had forgot this part of Illinois's statute, allowing exceptions for first cousins. Hawk)

     (720 ILCS 5/11-11) (from Ch. 38, par. 11-11)
        Sec. 11-11. Sexual Relations Within Families.
        (a) A person commits sexual relations within families if he or she:
            (1) Commits an act of sexual penetration as defined in Section 11-0.1 of this Code; and
            (2) The person knows that he or she is related to the other person as follows:
               (i) Brother or sister, either of the whole blood or the half blood; or
               (ii) Father or mother, when the child, regardless of legitimacy and regardless of whether the child was of the whole blood or half-blood or was adopted, was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or
               (iii) Stepfather or stepmother, when the stepchild was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or
               (iv) Aunt or uncle, when the niece or nephew was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or
               (v) Great-aunt or great-uncle, when the grand-niece or grand-nephew was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed; or            (vi) Grandparent or step-grandparent, when the grandchild or step-grandchild was 18 years of age or over when the act was committed.
        (b) Sentence. Sexual relations within families is a Class 3 felony.
    (Source: P.A. 96-233, eff. 1-1-10; 96-1551, eff. 7-1-11.)


     IIRC, the other part about the "supervisory" role thing is in the actual "Sexual Crimes" section of the statute, and has enhanced penalties or spells out aggravating circumstances for such trusted parties, including family members, clergy, teachers, and so on.

  7. Guest Unknown,

     You're in the perfect position to get what was known around here as "Hawk's Broken Record Speech." Ready? Here goes.

     FIRST, you are young, and have your whole life ahead of you. You have no reason to rush. He's older, and will probably be in relationships of a much more serious nature than you are in any sort of position to begin at this point. Until such time as you are old enough, you need to focus on other things. Foremost being your schooling. You need to decide what you would like to do with your life, then take well planned steps to move toward those goals. Get or keep the grades up. Not everyone is going to be a rocket scientist or brain surgeon, but there are trades and occupations you can get in with much less strenuous study, which are very lucrative. Get yourself in a position to make your own way.

     In the mean time, stay in touch with this cousin. Do be sure to speak to him, and even ask advice. If he's in college, what's his major? Would he suggest something similar for you? Ask him if he thinks your choice of careers is a wise one, or, would he suggest something different. Chances are he will have insight on these things, and would be willing to share it with you. As time goes by, and you get older, depending on his relationship status, you could slip in our standard "break the ice, tried and true, test the waters" line of "You know, if you weren't my cousin, I'd ___________" Fill in the blank. Be your GF, go out with you, tell you to wait on me,.... whatever fits the conversation at the time. Just don't push too quick. You could prematurely get him interested, and, until you are of age, get him in quite the bind. Bide your time, stay in touch, build the friendship, and then, when you're ready, go for it.

  8. Hellwell,

     You should start your own thread, but since you posted here, I'll reply, First, if she is the daughter of your Mother's sister, she is your FIRST cousin, and it depends on what country or State in the US you are in as to whether it is legal or not, If she says you are like brother and sister, then culturally, I'm going to guess you are from India, or the religion is Hindu, because in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, there is no SCRIPTURAL prohibitions on first cousins marrying, and it is (and historically has been) preferred and even commanded. If I'm right, then yes, your best option is to move to where it is legal and accepted.


  9. David,

     I've been scarce around these parts for several months, and after I have a little break, and decide to figure out where I'm going to go to work next, I'm liable to get scarce again. Whilst I'm off though, I'll jump in, and this is as good a thread as any to do so. Before we get real carried away, I'd like to clear up one small (very common) misconception you have. If she is the daughter of your 40yr old first cousin, she is actually your first cousin once removed. The viewing public, and many new arrivals don't quite grasp the concept, so, I'll try to boil it down to the kitchen table for you. The primary "cousin" relationship is that of you and her mother being first cousins. She is one generation down the tree from that lateral point, hence, "once removed." If one day she has a child, the child will be two generations down, and will be your first cousin TWICE removed, and so on. It takes a while to wrap one's head around, but that's about as concise as I can put it. HOWEVER, if SHE believes it's second cousins, and the rest of the family believes that as well, to lessen drama, roll with it. It only really becomes an issue in a handful of States where 1C1R's are prohibited from marrying. It doesn't look like that's in your future at this point, BUT, I will tell you don't totally rule it out in the future. This site has had many stories of of young connections such as yours, and then, later in life, after other relationships, the cousins reconnecting, and actually making a go of it.

     Let's see if I can first hit the points of which you're seeking advice. It may be cathartic for me as well, as I'm in a similar situation, albeit with someone other than my cousin.

     How do you face her at family functions? Like you do any of the rest of the family. It will be extremely hard, but, you CAN do it. I know. I did it for 30 years with my cousin. Depending on how windy I decide to get, perhaps more on that later. Suffice it to say we let it be very awkward for a very long time. But, after the first few very awkward occasions, we instinctively fell into a sort of "keeping up appearances" type of mode. Since you are the one seeking to lessen the tension, your behavior may as well be the pivot that gets the two of you to that place. Be casual. Do you go out of your way to chat up other specific family members? Probably not, you just fall into normal conversation with them, and then on to others as the conversation changes or the mingling occurs. Keep it casual. The temptation is going to be to bring up the elephant in the room. I know. I did it the first few times we saw each other, and it only made matters MORE awkward. The way to do it is, to be casual. Difficult as it can be, you must, for her AND you. If she thinks you've gotten over it, it will lessen her tension over it, which will lighten her up, which will even more so lighten you up. You will never forget it, and I'll assure you, neither will she. She's running from it. Which is as good a segue into the next area as any....

     You feel heartbroken when you see her, but you're doing your best to figure out she's not the one for you. This is where it gets tedious, and confusing, and, it has the potential to be disastrous in the future. There is the possibility that she is actually a good fit for you. But, you've said she's nowhere near as extroverted as you. Sounds like my cousin. She's a very private person, and wants people to consider her a nice person. Everyone I know DOES think that about her. We are very similar. We were born a week to the day apart. We ARE second cousins. Our Moms are firsts. But, for a time we were as close as siblings. At some point, I may repost my tale which has been lost over time in various upgrades to the site here. At any rate, when we were 20, we had our little "moment", she got nervous, didn't want to go for it, and walked away. Sound familiar? I didn't want to push her, so, I let her walk, and we let the whole affair (no pun intended) be awkward for years. We're 54 now, we've aired it all out, and we're finally back to where we were "before". In the intervening time, she got married, had two kids, got divorced, and since shortly thereafter, has had a long term BF. I went back to running amok, got married and divorced three times, and had other relationships as well. The timing was never right, we have no stomach for cheating, so even though I'm single, she's taken, and there'll be no shenanigans.

     Now to how I'm in a very similar situation. I may as well spill, the rest of the mods and admins have a pretty good idea of what I've had going on, but I've not went into it openly. I'll try to do so as concisely, yet discretely as possible. Here's where it gets very windy.....

     Ok. The first two marriages were when I was in my 20's, and not very long term. The first was 4 years, the second about 2 years. After that. I was with a woman formerly known around here as DW (Dear Wife). We were together from when I was 30 till I was 51, almost 21 years. She knew me and Cuz were close, and had been closer. She didn't know all the gory details, and didn't need to. She was a good woman sober, but every man's worst nightmare when she drank. She didn't want to not drink, and after 20 years of the abuse, I wasn't going to do it another 20 years. We divorced. I had no intention whatsoever to EVER let another woman that close to me again. I was a three time looser at marriage, (and other relationships too) and I was in no mood to do it again. I had a couple girls riding with me, one of them being Cuz's older sister, who I actually had the "kid crush" on when we were young. I had some friends I rode with introduce me to another woman, despite my protestations. But, we met, she was an intelligent, engaging conversationalist, and had been widowed the year before. I actually was the one who called Cuz and told her of his passing, as we had went to school with him, and Cuz was traveling, and at that point, was not on FB, and was largely out of touch with hometown events. At any rate, The Good Widow and I hit it off big. Cuz's Sis and The Blonde both met her and both told me "You better not let her get away." When a woman who is riding on the back seat of a Harley tells you that about another woman, knowing her arse is going to be replaced there by said other woman, one takes notice. When TWO of them do it, it's a consensus, and it behooves one to at least consider the possibility. So, against my better judgment, I let her in. It was very good. I'd never been happier in my life with a woman. Cuz would even be hard pressed to make me that happy, and is probably the only woman I know with the qualities to do so. So, for about two and a half years, I was very happy. I saw me growing old with this woman. But, alas, it wasn't to be. In early February, out of the blue, she came in and said she didn't want to do this anymore. I was crushed. (Sound familiar?) But, I'm not going to beg anybody to love me. I WAS tempted, but, I didn't. I've since wondered many a time if I should have. I just couldn't bring myself to it, so I didn't. She had become attracted to another man, and when that happens, it's over anyhow. She said there wasn't anyone else, and, I suppose technically, at that point there hadn't been yet, but they were talking, and she was intrigued enough to take the chance, and break me. And that she did. I was lost. I still am, but I'm getting better. As if that wasn't enough, in the middle of March, the former DW was found dead in her bathroom. I was out on the Harley getting some "wind therapy" over the Widow when I got the news. I knew DW lived in the town 6 miles south of here, but I didn't know where. Her sister called me, freaking out, gave me an address, I jumped on the bike, and took off. About 3 miles south of town, who should I roll up behind? You guest it..... The Widow. Great. I guess she thinks I'm stalking her. So, I didn't blow past her like I was tempted to do, I just followed her to the first set of lights, I had to turn left, she was turning right. She had the window down, and a funny look, ( I guess she wondered if I was stalking her, LOL) and said "What's going on?" I said "They just found DW dead in her bathroom." She said "OMG, where are you going?" I said "I don't know, I have to find the place" The lights turned, and we went our separate ways. I got there before the coroner got there even. Her sister and the friend who had went to check on her, and had the police go in and look for her (and found her) were there, the EMT's, and a handful of her friends and co-workers. They obviously wouldn't let us go in until the coroner was there and allowed us to, so, we were outside. When they brought her out in the red velvet body bag is when I lost it. I lost it for ALL I had lost. A marriage which should have worked, and a relationship that was working (I thought), but, in the end was a sham. I had largely been off work since the middle of December, (I'm a Union worker, and a lot of it is seasonal) and a few days later, got called by the Hall to go south to Tennessee to work. (I'm in Illinois) I obviously turned it down, telling them I just had WAY too much on my plate to leave. Unlike me, in the divorce, DW had not taken my name off her affairs. I had gotten my name off the plastic, but, I had to go sign the life insurance policy to get her cremated, buried, and a stone. Then, I unceremoniously got uninvited to the funeral. So, I loaded up and went to Memphis/Tunica. I had to get away. I have family and friends down there, and I've been back several times since. I needed a distraction, and shortly, I got one. In a BIG way....

     The job they had called me for was having turmoil. The steward was leaving. They called me, and told me they wanted me to take over as steward. They made it sound like a cake walk that was big $$$. Well, it was big $$$, but it was anything but a cake walk. After three hours of orientation, the stew who was leaving dropped a folder in my lap, and said "Here you go Brother, Good Luck.". I opened it up, and found out I had ~ 65 people scattered over 275 miles of a soup sandwich. It was crazy. I'd tell you to find a distraction, but if you do, be careful what you ask for. Initially, I was in WAY over my head, but, the steward of one of the other trades took me under his wing, and within a week or so, I was rolling with it. If I had known how big an elephant it was to eat, I would have never taken it. And that would have been a HUGE mistake. I made so many friends, and made so many connections, if I don't work from here on, it's because I don't want to, or jobs haven't kicked off yet. I succeeded beyond my wildest dreams, professionally, AND financially. I found out I have a LOT more in me than I ever thought I did. I did things I didn't know I had in me. I played the game well. I picked my battles wisely, and didn't loose any of them I took on. I got my way, pretty much just for the asking. This thing was so long geographically, and coincidentally geographically, that I made several more mixed business/pleasure trips to the Memphis area over the course of the job. In the process, I got a female friend who I have as a "life coach" who's traveled with me. I have another female consort I've known for nearly 40 years, and we were an item when we were very young. They've kept me amused, and distracted. Initially, the Widow and I were in occasional casual contact. That wasn't working. I had this void that I couldn't get past. (Sound familiar?) I had to break contact, at least for a while. I told her to block me on FB, and take my number out of her phone, and I was taking hers out of mine. I couldn't watch it. I didn't block her, because I was the one that couldn't watch what she was doing, and I had no indication she was watching what little I had time to post, and really didn't care if she did. I just couldn't do it. So, it got a little easier, but I still had this void. To be perfectly honest, I still do. To be honest, I want it to grow. I don't want to fill it. These girls are not looking for a relationship, and that's why I chose to hang with them. I can't do it any more. I'm too old. I will be happily single before I take another heartbreak like this last one.

     When that job ended, I posted some parts of this story as a motivational tale to others and also to "let it out". I made no mention of the Widow mind you, just my success, and my surprise at it, and my uptick in confidence. Well, who do I get a pm from? You guessed it. The Widow. She had unblocked me just long enough to congratulate me, and then was going to put the block back after the time limit. I told her she didn't have to, and that the conversation, and ability to air it out had been cathartic. We now do communicate some, and it isn't nearly as bad as it was. Want to know why? Because I DO realize it was HER decision, right or wrong in MY eyes doesn't matter. It is her who made the choice. Bed Made Lie. I thought I was the better man, but she didn't. I now KNOW I am. Maybe she'll figure that out, and maybe not. Her opinion of me is not MY problem. Sound familiar? She's actually came to the house a couple times, and the face to face WAS a little awkward at first. Sound familiar? I did truly love her. I still do, and always will. But, I realize now, that my opinion is that SHE screwed up. She may not think so, and conversely, MY opinion of HER choices are not HER problem. She will decide whether she made the right decision or not, and she will live with her decision as I am.

    I can tell you that there is no time limit to grief. It is like a death. That I actually had a death to deal with in the process did also begin the process of consolidating my emotions and getting them into focus. I hope you don't have anything like that to deal with, and the grief of the loss of what you wanted is the extent of it. While there is no time limit, time DOES soften the blow, and you WILL get past it. I get one step closer every day, by the sheer will to do so. You have too up to this point, and you may as well continue to do so. If, at some point out in the future, I am truly alone, and the girls have went other directions, and the Widow should be in a similar place, perhaps she will reach out, and we can (MUCH MORE CAREFULLY) revisit it. You and your cousin may find yourselves in the same place. As I mentioned, it wouldn't be the first time that a youthful liaison has led to a mature relationship between cousins in your situation. It will all come down to timing, and enough of a lack of the awkwards that you need to lessen as best you can, while you can. You should do it with no expectation of anything in the future, but because it's a factor in your healing process.....

  10. Anxietyridden,

     I suppose it depends on where you are. If cousin marriage is legal in the State you are in, then, no, it's all a lot of puff and bravado out of your ex and his new wife. I'm going to go only slightly out on a limb here, and say that since DHHS has met with you, and found nothing, then at least as of now, you are fine, and the children cannot be taken away from you. Let's go ahead and get the legal disclaimer out of the way here, and remind you that we are not lawyers, and do not give legal advice. However, that said, I'm reasonably confident that if you are in a State which DOES consider cousin relationships as criminally incestuous, the children would have already been taken, and that would be the least of your legal worries at this point. Luckily, there are only a very few such States. Most of the States where you cannot legally marry still do not consider cousins to be on the list of criminally prosecutable under the incest statutes. So long as it is not a crime for the two of you to be together, then your ex would be very hard pressed indeed to take the children from you. I do hope you have the cards of the DHHS folks you spoke with. If not, get their contact information. If it were me, I would do as follows... First, I would contact them, let them know you appreciate the fact that they had to check into the report, and that you also appreciate that they found factually that there was obviously no such issues going on. I would tell them that the drama is continuing, and that THAT part of it IS becoming an issue with the potential to be detrimental to the children. I would ask if they would be willing to speak with your ex (or speak with him again) and let him know that basically, he should cut the crap before it does become any more detrimental to the children, or they will be coming over to have an official "Come to Jesus" meeting with him and his new wife. I HAVE seen (here, DCFS) do such a thing before. The "puddin' stirrers" were told in no uncertain terms to cut the crap, lest THEY find themselves on the wrong side of the law for false reporting and harassment. It worked. Perhaps such a call would work in your case....

     Other than that, you may be well advised to speak with a family law attorney, perhaps the one who represented you in the divorce. Do realize that they may also be biased against cousin relationships, as could be a judge. However, depending on the law in your State, should you be ruled against, it would be immediately appealable, and at the appellate level, biases are NOT considered, only the law. Appellate judges have a knack for smackdowns, in a BIG way. And they don't care WHO they smack down. They will smack down petitioners, lawyers, and even lower court judges equally. If you have any indication your lawyer may be biased against your situation, find another lawyer, looking for one who has done work at the appellate level. One such as that will have either already been "tuned-up", or have had the big smile when the other side got their "tune-up". ;):D:lol:

  11. Azam,

     Sorry I didn't get to this sooner. I've been very busy.

     First things first. Do keep all of this on the down low, and do yourself and everyone else a favor by keeping it that way until the divorce is final. Get that fully out of the way, THEN worry about further matters of the heart.


     As far as a spiritual element, I'm not sure, as I'm no scholar on Eastern religions. As far as a purely spiritual aspect, with no religious overtones considered, I do think in some cases there is something going on that way. For example, I have a second cousin I am very fond of. When we were college age, we had a little "moment" if you will. She was afraid of what people would say, and had a pretty good idea what I would say, if I heard them comment on the fact. She had no tolerance for the drama, and we walked away from it. We are very close in age, (one week to the day apart) so there is that sort of an aspect at play as well. We let the whole affair be quite awkward for 3 decades. A few years back, we reconnected, aired the whole thing out, caught up, and are pretty much back to where we were "before." We have this thing (that, if you read around here, you will notice is not that uncommon among cousins) where we look in each others' eyes, and sort of "see our own/each others' souls." We instinctively know what the other is thinking. We often finish each others' sentences. We just "get" each other. We're not together, and I see no real possibility of us ever being together again. Even though I'm single now, she has a long term BF, and we've never had any stomach for cheating with each other. There are lines we will not cross.


     As to any legal ramifications, so far as we know, second cousins (and in your case, beyond) are legal everywhere in the world. Certainly here in all 50 States. There is a stigma, that reaches out to at least second cousins, but the fact remains it is perfectly legal. Your ex will find any such argument shut down in very short order. However, why put yourself through the BS? As I mentioned, keep it on the down low whilst you navigate this divorce. He will not be able to change any custody agreement on that basis alone. Should you decide to change States, then THAT could be an issue, but the fact that you and your 2C1R are an "item" will not be allowed to legally hold any water, and any determination otherwise would be easily appealable.


     Good luck, and keep in touch.....


  12. Morgan,

     To break the ice, there is not much better than what we call the "old tried and true" method of saying "If you weren't my cousin, I'd ______ (date you, be your GF, go out with you)". Fill in the blank to fit your particular situation at the time. If he responds similarly, you can step it up with something like "Actually, it doesn't really bother me so much that we ARE cousins. I probably would anyhow." If he reacts badly, you can always use the out of saying "I did say IF, you know. IF we weren't cousins.....". It still gives him something to think about, and you should not be surprised if at some point in the future, he didn't come back and say "You know, I've been thinking about this cousin thing, and..........". Maybe even after he looked into it, and found his way here. It wouldn't be the first time. If it gets to the point, then, at late 20's, you two are certainly old enough to have what we around here call "The Talk". You have an adult conversation about just where you think you would like to go with a relationship, then go there......

  13. Morgan,

     I suppose it depends on how old the two of you are now. If you're still in your teens, my advice is going to be dramatically different than if you two are even 21/22 ish. If you are both available, and in your 30's or beyond, it will be a little more involved. It is also going to depend on where you live, so as to determine if there is the possibility of legal drama. I can have a little peek, (and did) and if our look-up is correct, where you are, it is perfectly legal. So, one potential problem out of the way. Now, do tell how old the two of you are, and we'll try to take it from there.....


  14. confusedANGEL,

     I have a little different take on it than Serendipity perhaps. I'm not so sure she had a little peek as to where you are, like I did. You do not mention where you are, so, rest assured, I shan't either. However, if the look-up is right, I'm extremely curious as to how this has went this long with the family drama. For one, I'm surprised either the marriage wasn't arranged, or you didn't face MAJOR repercussions for your actions. If you are of the culture where it shows you as being, and not of foreign decent living there, (and even if you are) I don't know how this whole thing managed to slide by, and someone not get seriously hurt or killed. 

     All of that said, if he has actually done what he can without it being known openly, (and possibly threatening the well being of you and your child) and is now willing to step up, and in a position to do so, (you don't mention him being with anyone else) then I would at the very least have a nice long (overdue) adult conversation. The family was successful in keeping you apart for these many years. Now, as adults, when the truth finally needs to come out, and you two are now adults, they have no say any longer. I do know where you are, (again, if the look-up is right) it is more than perfectly legal for you two to marry, and it is regularly encouraged. However, I'm not sure if there would be legal or religious ramifications of you doing so at this late date, and with obvious evidence of previous premarital sex. (your son)

     Your situation is the PERFECT example of why I ALWAYS tell our younger members to put this all on the back burner until you are older, and in a position of independence. Since you did not, and it was ( you were in a motherly way) positively evident there was something going on, they were able to successfully keep you two apart. If you have the chance now, to make a go of it, even if you have to leave, I would strongly recommend it. You will still want to feel him out as Serendiptiy said, but, if he has been doing everything he can think of with out jeopardizing the safety of you and the child, I would think now is the time to make things right. If there is even the slightest risk of harm coming to any of you, all of this should be done most discretely. Then, leave if you must. As I say, it is well past time for this conversation. If he has been setting around biding his time for 11 years, I'll assure you, he has taken every contingency into consideration, and you would be well advised to hear him out. He may have plans already in place. Pick your steps carefully and quietly, and take things as they come.....

  15. lilianaa22,

     We aren't lawyers, and don't give legal advice. That said......

     Leave Texas, and stay gone. You are dancing on very thin ice. You will be breaking the law by having intimate relations, you cannot marry there, and you cannot marry elsewhere and return there. The statutes could very likely be overturned, but unless you have extremely deep pockets and hard heads, why test it? California and Florida are excellent options, as is Georgia. In fact, economic conditions being what they are, unless you have options in California, I would look very hard for jobs whilst in Florida. js

  16. Sab,

     Though this site is directed toward cousins who are attracted to each other, or already to the point of being in love, and you didn't mention that this young man is kin/cousin to you, the rules are still pretty much the same. You get the "broken record speech to young members" I've become infamous for, just without the "cousin" parts that tend to complicate matters at times. Ready? Here goes.....

     First. Keep your nose in the books. Don't let these hairy legs distract you from your studies. I'm sure it's all quite flattering to have these older boys falling all over you, but, I can assure you what the main intention is. I doubt I need spell it out for you. You'll have the summer off, so the books won't be all that big of a concern until time to go back to school, but do try to stay focused on your future. Don't be getting into any neeked shenanigans with either, or ANY of these boys until you are of age to do so, and of a mind to decide which one (if either of these two) you would like to have pursue you, and vice versa.

     As far as the "little sis" comment goes, out of the one you have taken somewhat of a liking to, he probably felt that way initially, but, as you are getting older, he's seeing you as more of the young woman you are becoming. See my "I doubt I need to spell it out" comment above. I know you like hanging with them, but, if they can't cool the jets, it may be time for a new circle of friends. They need to learn to respect you as a friend, just as you need to let them know that as of now, that's all it is. If that isn't enough, then, you'll need new friends to hang out with. No pressure. You're too young for it, and don't need it when you get older either.


  17. NurseCousin,

     Welcome. I'm glad he shared this site with you, and you decided to take the time to investigate the facts further. Don't worry if he was a little too forthcoming. You are anonymous here. We mods and admins have the ability to have a little peek at where you are, but, our look-up is nowhere near so accurate as to give your actual street address, and if it does, we consider it suspect. It shows me as being in the town 6 miles west of where I actually am. For our purposes, which particular State one is in will suffice. We'll not be sending out Christmas cards or anything such as that. do not worry about TMI here. I've stated before, (but since the upgrade, those posts may be lost) and I will state again: I personally will physically destroy my hard drive before I ever reveal ANY (however minuscule) information on ANY member here, unless there is evidence of something of the nature of child abuse or some such. There are plenty enough AF officers, yours won't be narrowed down from anything mentioned here, trust me. 

     It's also been a while since I've went into any detail about my specific situation. Like you and yours, me and mine are 2nd cousins. We were born a week to the day apart, me being a week older. As very young kids, we were not in contact, since they were all over the world for her Dad's work. At ~ 10 yrs old, they came back, her parents divorced, and through that, and her Grandfather's passing (my Grandfather's brother) her, her Mom and sister moved across the street from us. We all played and had a large time. As kids, there was really nothing between us, and I actually had the kid crush on her older sister. But, from the time we met, and our Mom's had us tell each other our birth dates, and it dawned on us we were a week to the day apart, we were always "best/favorite cousins" and still are.

     As we grew older, we moved several miles out in the country, to another school district, they moved to another place, and we lost the close contact we had. But, we both liked to party, our circles overlapped to some degree, so we still saw each other on occasion. Then, when we were 20, through a series of events, we were both unattached, she needed a favor, I obliged, and asked if she wanted to come hang out. She did, I went and got her, and, a little partying here and there, and one thing leading to another, in fairly short order, poo got real, as I can say and skirt the cuss filter. LOL So, for a couple weeks, we had quite the little fling. Our "moment" we call it. Like you, she wasn't sure of any aspect of us being able to be together, such as the legalities and genetics. She was also quite nervous as to what our friends would say, as they all knew we were cousins. Our Mom's wouldn't have cared, and her Mom was actually speechless (no mean feat) when she figured out we had just crawled out of the hay one morning. But, she never said a word, and actually got a huge grin, and went back to her conversation. My Mom wouldn't have cared either. But, she didn't know that. I wouldn't have cared what anybody thought, but, she got nervous, I didn't want to push her, so, we walked away, and let the whole affair be quite awkward for about 3 decades. In the last 5 years or so, we've been back in contact, aired it all out, and it's all good. The timing has never been, and I don't see any way it ever would be, right, to where we could pick back up. She has a long term BF, and, even though I'm not in a relationship at the moment, I'll NOT be getting in the way of hers. We have no stomach for cheating with each other, so, there'll be no shenanigans. Way too much water has passed beneath the bridge.

     That's why I will tell you two to do what it takes to be together and happy, if you at all possibly can. If you are more comfortable taking things slow and keeping it on the down low, then by all means, do so. Eventually you will want to be open to the world as a couple, but, there will still be no need to be overly forward about sharing the actual relationship with the world. Family will know, and that's fine. They'll either be OK with it, or they'll get over it, as will the ex. If you'd rather not have a hot mess of drama out of him, then I would certainly agree with you keeping it on the down low for the 3 years or so that it will take to where he has no right to even mention it. Even if before that, he can't DO anything about it, he can raise it as an issue. Why bother listening to it? I'm sure the two of you will be able to play it by ear and you will know at each step, how to proceed.....

     So again, welcome, and feel free to share as your comfort level allows, and keep us posted on the progress. We like the success stories, of which, you two have the potential to be.

  18. Rosy,

     So long as it is legal where you are, you two are certainly old enough to make your own decisions as to what you want to do, and what makes you happy. You didn't mention where you are, so, I shan't either. But, as a mod, I do have the ability to have a little peek. I'm not totally familiar with the laws there, but, IIRC, first cousins cannot marry there. From that starting point, you have to determine if first cousins once removed are allowed to marry. If so, you would be free to have whatever relationship, up to, and including marriage, that you so choose. You will want to have a good look at the marriage laws there, and see exactly where you stand.

     IF it is legal, the two of you should really have a good 'ole set-down heart to heart talk, and get on the same page, and determine to stand up to any potential family "bullies" you may have to deal with. 

  19. 24 minutes ago, LadyC said:

    i have to agree with the others. there are no laws ANYWHERE in the US or Canada (in fact, i'm nearly positive there are no laws in any country) prohibiting marriage between second cousins. he could not even bring that up in a custody battle. 

    i also echo the sentiments about no shame! now if i'm not mistaken, commissioned officers went straight from some fancy military school to being high up on the food chain without ever serving a day of doing the real work, am i right? sometimes officers need a reality check

    I'll ALSO agree with the others. I'm probably a little more devious though. Let this asshat hire a PI, "THE BEST" lawyer, and let him pee away his not so hard earned $$$. It would make for a large dose of reality check. ;):P I personally love to see an arrogant arse get a good smack-down. Judges have a tendency to enjoy giving them out too, in my experience.

     Second cousins you are indeed, and second cousins are perfectly legal in ALL 50 States, as noted. As far as the rest of the family is concerned, who cares? I'd be willing to bet that if her mother is still in a good enough mental state, she would not be surprised, and would probably tell you she always knew there was just a little more going on than met the eye, back in the day. Mom's can sense these things, not just from their daughters, but usually, even more so, from their sons. It wouldn't surprise me if your and her mother didn't discretely speak of just how "close" the two of you were. Don't look for drama out of her, and don't pay any attention to any of it out of anyone else. Not their circus, not their monkies.... You two get on about the business of building on the foundation that was laid all those years ago, and unearthed and dusted off of late. If you have the chance to be together and make each other happy, and truly commit to making that happen, you shall surely be blessed.

     If you are still somewhat nervous, take things slowly, as you would any other relationship. We always say the sneaking around can be exhilarating initially, but, eventually, it WILL become drudgery. However, it would seem you only have to do it for 4 years at the most, if you don't quite have the stomach for stupidity out of her ex. I would also strongly encourage you to get her here, show her the facts on the main page, and then show her this thread, and our advice. Join up as members, or even joint members, as we have a few instances of couples having an account. Just, when posting, post as X-ray him or X-ray her, so as we know to which of you we are speaking. Other than that, I'm going to reiterate again, GO FOR IT, AND DON'T LET ANYBODY STOP YOU.  

  20. Let's get the standard disclaimer out in the open again, that we do not give legal advice. However, if I'm looking at the lists of States and what is allowed further down on the State Laws page, Illinois does allow 1C1R's to marry. Again, I would want to have a close look at the actual statute, but, IIRC, it does only say first cousins, then followed by the age and sterility exceptions for first cousins. It, unlike WI and a few others, does not say "nearer than second cousins".

  21. Violet,

     LadyC is probably correct in that you could challenge the law and prevail. I have a sneaking suspicion the reason WI dropped the aforementioned case was, they had a pretty good indication said member had excellent representation, and would most likely have the law overturned. I'm reasonable sure that played at the very least a considerable part of why they dropped it. There were other issues involved as well, which led to the charges in the first place. Some of those issues were mute by the time this all started making it's way through the system, so there was that as well. 

     All of that said, unless you have REALLY deep pockets, as well as really large, (hmm, how can I say this without running afoul of the cuss filter?) testes lets say, I would still advise you to trend his direction as opposed to him coming your direction. You haven't mentioned your age, only that you just graduated. I may have wrongly assumed you were talking about high school, when in fact you may be referring to college. If you have just graduated high school, I'll assure you, you are in no position to take on such a fight. You are in no position to take on the drama of your family. If you have just graduated college, you are in the slightly better position of being able to start looking for a job in Illinois. Or, should the two of you decide elsewhere would be better, find a better part of the country where you see green. https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=states 

     I can tell you, that as a long term, and all but lifetime resident of Illinois, if you can find desirable, gainful employment elsewhere, you would do well to seriously consider it. I'm rather partial to GA myself, and Nat will tell you to come on down to FL. There are also "red" States that do not allow full first cousins, but do not prohibit 1C1R's. I updated some of the links to the statutes within the last year or so, but, you would have to dig for yourself, as I don't have time at the present to dig into it for you. I love that sort of thing, but I'm a way busy old goat at the moment. That link has a section which says which States allow 1C1R's IIRC. Have a look at that. It will be all of the "green States, probably some of the "yellow" States, and a handful of "red" one too. Happy hunting, and perhaps a little more info as to your ages would help us further tune our advice to your particular situation.

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