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Posts posted by Hawk

  1. Ashna,

    I'm going to give you my standard reply to our Indian/Hindu members and guests. Leave. Go to the UK. You have the money, you have the skills, you only need the passport and a ticket. I'd be getting them. Unless and until people in your situation break these insane "traditions" of family controlling your very life, the cycle will continue in perpetuity.

    If you marry solely to appease your family, you will be miserable until the day you decide to live for you, if that day ever comes. Did you pick your brother's partner, if he has one? If he doesn't have one yet, do you get to pick? I bet not. So, he can go find himself a mate, or succumb to family and let THEM pick one for him, but you have no part of it.

    Your mother will not die because of your choice. She, and others may very well SAY she will, and blame you when she eventually does, (even if she passes of natural causes) BUT, it will be HER failure to have HER way in controlling you that will have caused her stress. HER choice to not give YOU YOUR choice. HER choice. Not YOUR failure to capitulate to HER choice. It is her choice to pressure you. She has no regard what soever as to your will or happiness. Her happiness matters more to her than your happiness matters to her. I don't give a damn what ANYONE says, that is NOT a loving parent. A family who all agrees with her is NOT a loving, caring family. For your own sanity, get out before you do something stupid for people who could care less how stupid a decision it is, so long as it keeps up appearances. Don't you dare sell yourself short when you've achieved all you have on your own. You make your own decisions, and I recommend the first one be the decision to get as far away as you possibly can.

    I'll give you an example of the difference. I'm not with my cousin, and never will be. We had our little moment, didn't go for it, and walked away from it. And, it's all good, we're fine with that. But, at one point, when I thought that we might possibly go for it, I told my Mom "Don't be surprised if at some point Cuz and I become an item." Her response? "So long as you treat her good, and you make each other happy, I don't have a problem with that...." Mind you, there isn't QUITE the stigma here in the US as there is in Indian/Hindu cultures, but it's pretty close sometimes. One difference is there are plenty of States where it's legal. Another difference between cultures is, that, had Mom NOT been willing to let us make our own decision, and tried to stop it, she knew full well it would have only made my determination that much stronger. Here, we choose who we love, and, even though many times family doesn't agree, they know they may as well let it play out, because pressure from them only makes us that much more determined to follow our own will. It's not at all unheard of for us to move away if we feel we have to, and never look back. That, M'Dear, is why I personally always advise our members from your culture to beat feet, and don't look back.

    The greatest gift we are able to enjoy is our free will. Anyone who would deprive you of it to force their will upon you is called a tyrant. Avoid tyranny, in any of it's forms. You would not be the first to go a Continent away to do so..... 

  2. That8th,

    It depends on where you are. As a mod, I can, do, and did, have a little peek. You didn't mention where you are, so, trust me, I won't either. The bad news is, where you are, (depending on how closely related you are, i.e. first cousins) you can't legally marry. I have a hard enough time keeping up with the legalities here in the US, so I have no idea as to whether or not this would be considered criminal incest there. I've never heard of it being so, but, again, I have no clue. On a slightly lighter note, while you are in a tough place to be in a cousin relationship, at least you aren't in India, which we almost unanimously agree is THE worst country to be cousins in love. This may be a case where we advise you similarly as we would members from India, in that, you may have to move to more friendly environs. I also know that, like India, where you are, family is very important, and to pack up and leave is almost as daunting as trying to stay and tough it out. 

    There is a recent post by a member from there who married their cousin, but fibbed about the actual relationship to do so. I cannot advise you to do so. If their relationship is discovered, their marriage will be declared null and void. Which, in their case, they may not care. IIRC, they have children together, and once that happened, the family came around to a great extent.

    All of this is also assuming you two are first cousins. You don't mention it specifically, so, I'm going on that assumption. However, if you are second cousins, or beyond, so far as we know, it is legal.

    Also, where you are, I'm going to assume to have a pretty good idea as to your religious persuasion. Other than it being illegal, your Church would allow you to marry, with a dispensation from the Diocese. But, being illegal, that's not an option. HOWEVER, it DOES speak to it NOT being a sin. It is an embarrassment to the family because they have bought into the stigma of it, not because the Bible actually prohibits it. To the contrary, in several instances, God commanded cousins to marry. A curse? Hardly, other than their uninformed drama. (and of course, the legalities, or lack thereof) Stupid? Haha, uh, NO. That would be THEM looking in the mirror. Disgusting? No, again, the disgusting thing is their reaction.

    If you are going to be outcasts, judged, and called names, then why stay for the abuse? Your family may be your everything, but from here, to me, it seems their feelings are much more important to you than yours are to them. If they gave your feelings the same consideration you give theirs, there would be no drama from them. They may not like it, but they would tend to their own business, and not try to manage their own affairs, as well as yours. Keep this in mind, love and respect runs both directions. When it's only one way, you have such drama, and a decision to make to take it, or move on. Personally, I'd move on to somewhere I could happily have the relationship of my choice. 

  3. 30something,

    Welcome aboard.

    There's a thread here to this effect, but, so as to not hijack it, I'll ask here. I'm curious as to how you found us, if you'd be so good as to share.

    As to your situation, I'll wish you luck, and also encourage you to share how it goes. Let's not do TMI, but, generalities will suffice. We find ourselves advising members, but we also find that first hand experiences encourage and motivate as well as anything we may say. Assuming your cousin is close to your age, you two are certainly of an age to make a go of a relationship, if you so choose. As a mod, I can have a little peek at where folks are, but, with your reference to the RAF, I don't really need to, and provided you are in the UK, you should know that to pursue this is perfectly legal. Keep our standard, tried and true "If you weren't my cousin, ________" line handy to use if you need an "ice-breaker".

    Again, best of luck, and keep us posted.....

  4. AmorImposible,

    You're still young. Bide your time. Step back and take a deep breath. Don't let his current relationship break your heart. You've not been in the picture to have been in a position to have had any effect on it. Keep him in the "friendzone" for now. Being shy, I don't see you being overly forward to the point of making things awkward. Keep an eye on things from a distance. Young relationships these days don't always have a long track record. 30 years ago, when I was 22, I (against my better judgement, and everybody else's advice) got married. It lasted 4 years total, and was a major trainwreck anyhow in the end. By that time, my Cuz was married, (I assume, we were in the 'awkward' phase, and had lost touch) and after that, one or both of us were steadily in other relationships, up to this day. The timing was never right, and we never had any of these facts here to overcome the stigma until I found this place, and in airing out the past, showed her. We're both certainly agreed we have no stomach for cheating with each other and ruining our respective relationships. This, even though unlike you, we have a "history" of sorts, all be it brief, from when we were your age.(20)

    Looking back, could things have been different? Yeah. Had I made a few more of the family get-togethers, I would have been a little more aware of her status. Had I quietly inquired from the distance as to how she was doing occasionally, I would have known when she got divorced. At that time, I was in a long term relationship, that was eventually my third marriage. Had I known these facts here, and the history and legalities of the matter, my relationship was rocky enough, and there were enough 'red flags' I would have possibly, as gently as possible, got out of it before we got married. I almost did a couple times anyhow. But, hindsight is 20/20 and all of that. I didn't know what was up with her, and, even back in the 90's, I'm not sure enough information would have been out there to go on. By the time I did get divorced, she was (still is) in a long term relationship, and shortly after, I was 'set-up' with a wonderful woman I'm happy to call my GF. We'll not be screwing up our current relationships with any sort of shenanigans of trying to recapture our youth. We've aired it all out, it's all good, and we're happy to see each other happy. Our situation is a little different than yours in that from the first time we met (~9-10 yrs old) on to this day, we've been "favorite/best" cousins, and that we loved each other very much was a given. We may have said it a time or two back then, but never actually verbalized the extent of it. Now, with the way we work, we don't get to see each other any more than we did all those years we were out of touch, so, when we do, we always say it. You never know when it could be the last time you get to say it. A lot of the work I do is reasonably dangerous, and she travels for her work now, and works from time to time in shall I say, less than desirable areas. Some of them have been down right dangerous. So, when we do get to spend time together, we make sure to enjoy it, tell each other "Luv you" and to be safe. It works for us. We know if things had been different, they would be different, but, it is what it is.

    About the best you can do, is keep in touch, stay in the friendzone, and build it to the "best/favorite" cousins state. From there, it's all about timing. There is no reason you have to set around waiting on him either. In fact, I would advise against it. Get out and about, and do a little dating. If you're so shy, there's no reason you have to get serious. But, there is the possibility you find someone who is right for you, and maybe even MORE right for you than your cousin. I might could have been happy with my cousin, but I don't see any way I could be any happier than I am now. As happy? MAYBE. More happy? I don't know how. I'm living the life right now. We've been together for 2 1/2 years, and she's never once raised her voice to me. We've had a couple little bumps in the road, but never cross words. Cuz and I are so much alike, that, seeing each other occasionally, it's cute. I have a feeling though, if we were in a relationship, it would eventually become tedious, if not down right aggravating. Of course, when we do get on each others nerves, it usually ends up in a light-hearted wrestling match/ticklefest, even as old as we are now. So yeah, you may have these feelings for your cousin, but, cousins are people too, and can grate each other just like anybody else. We in no way try to "over-romanticize" it. It can be very intense, and tends to be, but it can, and usually is, at least as much work as any other relationship, and it isn't unusual to be MORE work. While you may have some stars in your eyes right now, don't have any illusion as to how much time it could take, if ever, and how much effort it would be if something ever does come from it.... 

  5. AmorImposible,

    Probably not just yet. You want to be up to speed on the facts, and have looked into that link, and have some idea of how to broach the topic gently. Our experience is, that if you jump right in and blurt it out, it has a tendency to be awkward. Working your way out of the "awkward" zone isn't easy. Unless your cousin feels the same, (and sometimes even if they do) it's still going to have some amount of awkward. Making that amount as little as possible is always the way to go.

    It's also going to depend on your ages. We're ALWAYS going to recommend you wait until you are of age, generally 18 years old, but we realize some places, it's younger. Regardless, I recommend at least 20, and my personal preference is 22ish or so. Here's why. If you are still in school, and living at home, you really should put this all on the back burner, and get your education out of the way. Why? Because if you have gotten an education, are out on your own, it becomes all but impossible for family drama to stop you, provided it's legal where you are. If you are in the position to be independent, it's a whole lot easier to relocate to where it IS legal, if need be. In the meanwhile, you stay in touch, and build the friendship to the point that no matter what the outcome or drama, the friendship is going to be for life. Even if nothing comes of it when you are young, all you have to do is look at some of the recent threads to see that the future can hold more possibilities. By the time you're in your 40's, 50's, or beyond, you'll realize the clock is ticking, and if the two of you are on the same page with it then, it's a lot easier, and considerably more advisable, to test the waters, and if it's all good, wade on off in it. The one caveat we have on these relationships, no matter what the age, but more so as we get older, is, both parties need to be unattached, and available. We've seen massive trainwrecks in peoples' lives when there has been this underlying attraction, and, after one or both parties are in relationships with others, they decide to act upon it. If you think there'll be drama over the cousins being in a relationship, toss divorces, child custody, or other manners of nasty break-ups in the mix. Just as family may interfere when you are younger, even if they might be fine with it if you were older, if you're in a relationship, they're more likely to smack you up the back of the head, and say "WTH are you doing?", even if they might be fine with it if you weren't already in another relationship. You really have to take a deep breath and a step back, and have a good long look at the overall ramifications of the bigger picture.

    If you think this is something relevant to your long term happiness, then, once you are in a position to do so, test the waters with something like the old "If we weren't cousins/ Too bad we're cousins/ Other than us being cousins" line to break the ice. By the reaction to that, you will know whether to continue the conversation, or gracefully back out, at least for the time being. We've also seen numerous cases of that sort of line planting the thought, and at some latter date, the conversation coming back up with a different perspective. At that point, you continue the conversation honestly, and decide from there if it's something the two of you want to pursue....

  6. Danielle,

    Don't be defensive, but, be prepared to politely stand your ground. If the family drama was initiated by this Uncle, there's no need to directly go into that, but, in standing your ground, and, standing up for your husband, you can certainly make note that the estrangement had nothing to do with your husband, and, it is quite unfair to take it out on him, and, by extension, you. Even if the issues were initiated by this Uncle, there's no need to throw that in his face. He knows who initiated it. He did. Not his brother, and not your husband. It would just seem a bit unfair to resent the next generation, who had nothing to do with the issues of the previous generation. I would try to head any of it off if I could though. If it even begins to become an issue, I would simply say "Look, the past is the past. What happened then was not our problem. He's a good man, he's very good to me, he makes me happy, and in the end, that's really all that matters. Besides, we're in the "No Drama Zone" now, so, we don't do drama."

  7. If she's more open to talk about it, then talk about it. If you have a feeling she may bring it up, give her time to do so. My prediction is that she is going to bring it up by saying "So, tell me more about this dream." Good on you if you did have a dream, and brought it up, and brilliant on you if you didn't, and just thought up such a "lead-in".  :grin:

    The "If you weren't my cousin" thing or my variation (or some version of your own that fits the conversation at the time) is as good a way as any to start. You want to have some sort of "disclaimer" to it, but you don't want to emphasize that part of it too much. You know there IS the issue of being cousins, but a "work-around" must be available, and you're looking to see if she thinks the same, and what her solution might be. Having found your way here, you already know the facts and what we think about it, you just have to fully wrap your head around it, and bring her along as you do....

    If she gets nervous about it, talk about the weather. Sooner (probably) or later (for sure), she WILL bring it up. If in the meanwhile, you haven't let it be awkward, she will see the idea as less awkward than maybe she had thought. The less awkward or 'weird' it is, the less she will see the thought of it being awkward or weird.

    Another thing you could do, is, start out with the "If we weren't cousins" line, see her reaction, (to which I'll bet will be somewhere between neutral and positive, tending to positive) and then say "Ok, well, let's google it..." You already know what your going to find, so, 'find' this place, and as you do, say "I guess we ought to see if it's even legal first, hehehe." or something like that. You're going to have to think on your feet, and roll with the flow of the conversation. So what, if in the process, you're actually steering the conversation? Just because you have already looked into it, doesn't mean you have to act like you have. It isn't going to hurt you to play a little dumber than you actually are on the subject.

    And, I'm just tossing out some ideas here. You're the one who's going to be having "The Talk". We're not going to be there to hold your hand, but, at your age, it would look a little silly if we were. It may have been a while, but surly you've played the game. (Not that it's a game, mind you, but you know what I mean) The subject is going to come up. She's going to want to know about this dream. By the tone of how she asks is going to be your clue as to how you ease into the conversation. If she does so kind of 'sternly' or in a 'matter of fact' type of way, you ease in slowly. If on the other hand, when you are by yourselves, she does it in a 'flirty' way, like, "Sooooo, tell me all about this DREEAAAAMMMM of yours", you had better hang on, because you aren't going to need us to hold your hand. Like I say, you're going to have to play it by ear, and roll with it however it goes down. Either way, you could say "It was kinda different, us being cousins and all, but, it was pretty hot too. It was kinda blurry, but when I woke up I thought, 'That was different, I wonder where that came from' ". Would something like that work? Who knows, you're just going to have to wing it, without letting it get too far over the top, at least initially. Then again, if she asks in the second manner, it's liable to go over the top quickly. Be ready for that too... 

  8. loli,

    It's going to be the same as any other embarrassing type of issue you will discuss with your doctor. I don't want to be crude in any way, but you have to kinda be light-hearted about it too. Like, "Doc, I got this funky itch going on." You know, you don't REALLY want to talk about it, but you really HAVE to.  :huh:

    From your profile, and your other thread you've started, I see you're form Australia. I suppose you know, that it's perfectly legal in Australia to marry your cousin, so, having one as your BF, and being in a motherly way from said relationship isn't going to be some sort of crime either. Here, in the US, doctor/patient conversations have a long history of being pretty much confidential, in the same way as conversations with a lawyer or financial adviser, or any number of other professional services would be. More recently, it has been codified in what is known here as HIPAA. I won't bore you with the full name of this Act, but there are patient privacy provisions in it. I will assume Australia has something similar, whether or not the protections are as strong, and codified. There is considerable debate about just how strong the protections we have here are in keeping the Government from having access under our Act. Regardless, I'm still going to assume your conversations with your physician are going to be kept in the strictest of confidence. Being so sensitive an issue for you to broach, if I were in your shoes, I would first find out his (or her) stance on the matter of confidentiality. "Doctor, I have an issue I would like to discuss with you, but due to it's sensitive nature, I want to be sure it is held in the strictest of confidence..." I would say that he (she) will say "So long as it is nothing illegal, our conversation will be confidential." or some such statement. From there, you just wade off into it.

    I have an other idea for you, if you would be so inclined. Your doctor may or may not be up to speed on the genetics of the risks cousin couples are looking at. Not a problem. We have plenty of that information here. Feel free to go to the main page, click the menu button, go to the genetics section, read it well, and then copy any and all of the information you wish. An informed patient is a good patient, so long as you are not going to try to "second guess" your doctor's opinion. Unless your doctor is a geneticist, their going to send you to a specialist anyhow. But, if you've got the information in hand, it's going to be easier for them to make the decision to recommend you to one. You will let the doctor know that you know there is an increased risk, and that you are not so concerned about that as you are the fact that there is this known issue on the OTHER side of the family. Your doctor will then probably say "Good on you to have looked into this as you have, and seeing as how I'm not a specialist, let's get you set up with someone who is..." When you see a geneticist, have as much information as you at all possibly can have about this blood disorder, and it's prevalence, and extent thereof, in your mother's line, in hand with you when you go. From there, they will be able to determine your risks. That's what they do. I'm sure there are probably some rather complex calculations involved, so, it could take them a while to have a definitive answer, and there could be blood tests and the like involved. The time involved could vary. You don't mention if you are pregnant now, but, whether or not you are will probably affect the urgency, and therefor, length of time and urgency of any such testing.

    At any rate, do remain calm, and realize it's just another trip to the doctor, that's going to lead to trips to another doctor.  :wink:   

  9. strawberrymilk,

    I had quite a bit more in that post, and pared it back. I do define some of these relationships as incest, and out of my comfort zone, but, I do NOT consider cousins among them, based on the generally accepted HISTORIC precedent, and the generally accepted CURRENT genetic data. Which, considering the Old Testament as the historical part, and the current science as the modern understanding is how I come to my definition. I have no delusion of grandeur as to think my definition shall be the final word to anyone else. Part of what I pared back was on the risk of birth defects of the type in question being roughly equal to the risk an older (~35-40 yr old) mother would face. You'll NEVER see ANY politician who wants to be taken seriously on any other topic EVER suggest preventing a woman of that age from reproducing. But, the percentages are the same, FOR FIRST COUSINS. Now, irrespective of the morality or lack thereof of anything closer than that, I'd have to go back and look at the increased risks involved. It IS however generally accepted that the increased risks involved ARE scientifically inadvisable.

    An example which has come to the fore on at least a couple occasions here, is that of the uncle/niece relationship. Legally, it is generally, and almost universally prohibited, there are a few places and circumstances where it is allowed. With the majority of us here being of the Christian persuasion, going by the strict interpretation of the Old Testament, which our religious stance is based upon, we would be hypocritical to outright dismiss it out of hand on those grounds alone, so, we don't. However, with the current knowledge of genetics being what they are, we WILL advise against it, even though we realize it isn't prohibited outright. So, in my book, it isn't my cup of tea, but it isn't prohibited in the list we follow, so, to each their own. BUT, have a plan for the possible eventuality that any offspring have issues, because having mentioned the increased risk, it's going to be WAY out of my comfort zone to see my hard earned dollars going to care for the little nipper. Of course, maybe I'm odd in thinking if you can't afford them, don't have them to begin with, no matter WHAT the relation or lack thereof. Just the way I see it. And, if the uncle/niece relationship is allowed, is it purely misogynistic to not allow the aunt/nephew relationship? Personally, I think it is, even though it is in the same sort of "uncomfortable" zone as the former.

    By the same token, gay marriage is out of my comfort zone. Being hetero, I just don't get it. But then again, who's asking me, or needs my permission. As of now, they've been given permission, and far be it from me to interfere. I've been married and divorced 3 times now. I'll not say I won't marry again, because I currently have as good a woman as I've ever been with. And back in the day, I was a dog. I've "known" a few, OK? Cuz and maybe one other were in the same league. We're already seeing gay divorces, and, if they'da asked me, I could have told them "Be careful what you ask for."

    Which goes to a point I would make to closer consanguineous marriages. We regularly mention here, that, if you're going to go into a cousin marriage, you'd better be all in for the long haul. You can divorce your "husband" but you can't divorce your family. How much more so would this be an issue between for example, siblings? Oh my. Really? Ok, be careful what you ask for.....

    A lot of this goes to where my opinion is on this, and I had went into some of this before paring it back. These things were given in the Old Testament minutia of the law, and not directly put into the 10 Commandments. It's 10, not 17 or whatever the number would be. I liken it to some of the other minutia. For example, the prohibition on sleeping with a woman, and her mother (or daughter). It says don't do it because it is "confusion." No doubt!!!. Same with taking sisters as wives while the first one to be a wife is alive. It doesn't come right out and say you're going to burn for it, but, the sisters I know, you'd rather burn than deal with them both at the same time, LMAO. If you could pull it off, you're a better man, (or dare I now say woman  :shocked: ) than I. It doesn't take long to realize the order of things,as well as the roles, can get REAL confused.

    Also, there are already places where, though they cannot marry, and be open about a relationship, consenting adult closer relatives can have a consenting adult relationship. I recently mentioned in another thread that I am in the same State as the OP in that thread. So, out of respect for his anonymity, I'll not so soon mention this State in this thread. It's out there in previous posts of mine, so if someone really has to know, they can look. At any rate, Rhode Island has no criminal incest statute per se. Ohio and the State I'm in have quietly stopped prosecuting consenting adults in such relationships. I think there is at least one other State which is at the same point, but which one it is, I'd have to try to remember where I saw it. I know it was when I was digging through the statutes for the States within a year or so ago when I dug in a little to find out which States in which first cousins are considered criminal incest. There aren't many, but there are more than I originally thought. In that process, I found a sort of "Oh, by the way" kinda thing that said "These States are quietly not prosecuting any incest cases, and Rhode Island has no incest statute" kind of blurb.   

    I would encourage you to at the very least, start by not letting the cousin relationship be too much for you. If you're married to your cousin for four years now, I would hope you would give your relationship the courtesy you would like to see for these other relationships first. Though I, like most people do have a definition of incest, just because society has lumped cousins in there over the last 150 years or so, that isn't enough to make it so, especially when it was done based on overblown and faulty "science" of the day. If you think the stigma here is bad, go have a look at one of the "India" threads, and look at the nuclear meltdown their families there have. WOW.

    Speaking of which, did you have a bunch of drama out of family when the two of you got together?

  10. As far as full marriage equality among consenting adults, some of it is going to be outside my comfort zone, I won't lie. But again, if there is a God, and I believe there is a God, then it's going to be quite a bit over my pay grade to be judging. If there is, I'm sure I'll have enough of my own shenanigans to answer for to be too busy worrying about anybody else. Unless it DOES get into my pay grade with some progeny I'm supporting, when the science does generally fall outside virtually everyone's comfort zone, then yeah, that I'll have a major issue with. The adult siblings is testing the edge. I have seen that as well, I honestly believe. There was an elderly couple who lived across the street when we were growing up, and I'm pretty sure they were still there when Cuz and them moved a couple doors up from them. They were siblings. Neither had ever married. They had lived together as long as I knew them, and apparently for quite some time before that, possibly forever. Being of our grandparents' generation, there was never any hint of anything funny going on. No PDA's for sure. But, there were very few of those out of that generation anyhow. Nobody certainly EVER mentioned any sort of suspicions they may have had. I did find the whole thing odd though, and do believe there was just a LITTLE more going on than met the eye. Could anybody prove it, no. They kept up appearances enough that nobody wanted to think about it I suppose. She would berate him mildly on occasion, like a wife of that generation, and he'd giggle and say "Aww, go on back in the house." If NOT a couple, they were certainly a pair. LMAO

    Then, there's the fact that Cuz and I, (and her Sis and my brothers) were very close as kids, once they moved here. And we're 2nd cousins. But, for several years, we spent enough time together we considered each other "practical" siblings. We consider them the sisters we never had, and they consider us the brothers they never had to this day. My Mom loves those girls like daughters, and her Mom loves us like she would her own sons. I guess that's why it was too hard for Cuz to try to wrap her head around. Once we were in the moment, it was so intense, we didn't really think about it. But when we did take a good (sober, LOL) look around after the better part of two weeks, she couldn't fully wrap her head around it. Back then, with no information to go on, we went on the feelings, and the feelings were too much. I would have went for it, but I didn't want to push her out of HER comfort zone, so, we walked away. I do certainly understand how one thing leads to another, and in short order, you're in that deep with someone that close. It wasn't something we planned, and we're agreed, it isn't something we regret. We're also agreed that it won't be repeated. One of the moral absolutes we do agree on is not cheating on our SO's with each other.     

  11. Since we've seen this, I am going to redact a couple things in my post, before the spiders find it, and we perhaps have an influx such as we've had before. I may have to modify your quote as well strawberry, if it doesn't change with my actions. I became a mod here as a sort of junkyard dog, eating spam and banhammering trolls. I'd be remiss if I let stand more work for myself.....


  12. according to nearly every world religion's definition, according to medical definition, and according to NEARLY EVERY country's laws, cousin marriage is not incest. if you really want more info, exit the forum and view our legal information pages. there you will find that very few countries define cousin marriage as incest. even in the US where half of the states forbid first cousins to marry, many of those same states do not define sexual relations as incestuous. it's quite absurd, really. what is their point of forbidding a marriage if it isn't classified under incest laws? anyway, of those states (and countries) that do define it as incestuous, (and those are the minority of locations), the classification applies almost exclusively to first cousins... occasionally to first cousins once removed, but never ever applies to 2nd cousins or more distantly related.

    seriously, google should not be your dictionary. it only gives a very tiny portion of information and is quite often based on algorithms... meaning the popularity of what is being said on websites and message boards and so on. when you want information of this kind of it's better to look at credible sources. ours is a credible source of information because we've acquired the information directly from the legal statutes for each state and for many countries, and from medical journals and genetics experts and so on. we take a great deal of care in our research and cite our sources.



    As a mod, I'll pipe in as well. Members cannot see it, but search engine spiders are crawling all over this place all the time. As I type this, there are 2 Google spiders, 2 Yahoo spiders, and 14 Baidu spiders in here. The difference in the actual facts and what will pop up on a Google search is about the same as Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica. Actually, Wikipedia is probably more accurate factually than Google, and certainly more factual than anything I've ever seen on Yahoo Answers. With the right search terms though, and all the spiders, Google does tend to lead one here rather quickly.

    I found this place from the old &T (TOTSE) board. There was a young guy who started a thread in the "Love & Relationships" category, stating that he had a thing for his cousin. As you can imagine, he was set upon with several replies to the effect of your post in this thread, as well as being thrashed about the head and shoulders by others who were not so nice, who's "education" on the topic came from their Grandma, Yahoo, and the "infant" at the time, Google. Fortunately for him, there were several extremely intelligent individuals on that board, and in rather short order, they came in with links to GSA, here, and IIRC, a link to one of the studies noted on the "Genetics" page in the main page menu here. At the time, before :insert other 'dangerous' website: and some of the others we have now, that board was considered to be very close to the top of the list of, if not THE "most dangerous" websites on the web. The "Information" thread had absolute TONNAGE of information on every topic imaginable. Most of it from very reliable sources, linked and footnoted, and much of it from various university databases. There was everything from how to change a diaper to how to build a bomb.

    At any rate, I meandered in here off and on for several months lurking before I joined, as it was relative (no pun intended) to my interests. I like to think that at least sober, I'm a reasonably smart guy. I did get quite the education though when I found myself looking through the facts on the main page of this site. I had always, like you, ass-u-me-d all the "old wives tales" of kids with extra toes and such were factual. Hell, Grandma told me. She wouldn't lie would she? Well, no. She just didn't have the facts. It certainly didn't help that there were a brother and sister here in this town who were quite severely mentally, how can I put this nicely,,,,,, not all there. I never had any interaction with the sister, as she never left the house so far as I know, but the brother was well known and much loved in town for his work ethic and fanatical love of sports. So, one time I ask my Mom "Mom, what exactly is _____'s problem?" She said "Well, it just happens he's that way because his Mom and Dad are cousins." OK, but, I still don't know exactly what his problem was, or if it was even related (again, no pun) to his parents being cousins. It was everyone's assumption at the time, so, that's what we were told. Looking at the list of conditions that are related to cousins being couples, I don't immediately see one as jumping out to fit his "symptoms", and rather think it was something more in the line of autism or some such, and it just so happened to run in the line, and THEREFORE, showed up in them as a result, such as would be the case with two unrelated people who both happened to have such a tendency in each of their lines. And again, I'm not totally sure, because no one had a straight answer. Who ever heard of autism back then either? I hadn't. And, the jury is certainly still out on just exactly what does cause autism. Looking back though, he certainly seemed to be on the spectrum. Physically, he was pretty much normal, and he seemed "slower" than he was, until you got to know him. He could be pretty perceptive. He knew if someone was pulling his chain, and would play along just long enough to hand it back to them. But, 45 years ago, there was nowhere near the research that has been done since, and certainly no Google, Yahoo, or probably even beginnings of an internet. So, the old assumptions held. As you have seen by a cursory search, to a great degree, they still do. But, now, this site is here on the net, and it's main purpose is to educate. Feel free to take advantage of the information freely disseminated here. I'm glad I did, and educated myself. Too bad this wasn't here sooner, but, it is now....  Oh, and now, there's 3 Google spiders, 1 Yahoo, and 10 Baidu.   

  13. yukon2,

    As Romalee noted, you didn't mention where you are, and, at your ages, it isn't QUITE as much of an issue. As a mod, I can, (and did) have a little peek. Provided the index is correct, you are in one of what we call " the yellow States". https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=states 

    The age varies, as do the conditions that prompt "yellow" status, but, as a rule, it means first cousins can't marry UNTIL they reach a certain age, somewhere between 50 and 65. In the State you are showing as being in, ( big wave, same one as I'm in,  :grin: ) the age is 50. I know this is WAY out in front of where you are in this deal, BUT, with you just now finding out the facts and perhaps breaking a few of your own long held stereotypes, you may as well know the legalities should this progress to such a point as you envision. First cousins having a sexual relationship is NOT considered criminal incest here. Oddly enough, one State where it IS considered criminal incest happens to be Wisconsin, which I consider to be about the WORST about it. But, if you clicked that link, you will note that it is also a "yellow" State, and after the female reaches 55 yrs of age, it is legal for first cousins to marry. Go figure. Gotta love a bunch of lawyers setting around thinking these things up, LOL.

    Anyhow, enough of the legalities. You're good to go on that front. Now, as to how I see your situation. I'm not quite as old as  you, but I'm in my 50's and definitely nipping at your heels. I'm not with my cousin, nor shall I ever be, but, we're good with it. I have a GF that I can only hope shall remain my partner going forward, and she has a long term BF. We have no stomach for cheating and the drama that comes with it. We had our moment, and didn't go for it. Way too much water has passed beneath the bridge to go back now, where we are in our lives. That said, IF we were neither attached, I could see us in some sort of relationship. Would it be sexual? Yeah, probably, at some point, and on occasions. We've met. We do have a history, all be it brief, as to that aspect of it. At our age now, we'd be very hard pressed indeed to copy our "vigor" shall we say, of when we were 20, LOL. But, at our age, that seems fairly shallow to focus on, and the companionship would be every bit as rewarding. In as much as you have given us, I get the impression that's about where you two are, and, at least on your side, you would like to add another aspect to the "togetherness". Perfectly understandable, perfectly legal, and perfectly logical. Being my elder by a few years, I'm sure I need not tell you, none of us are getting any younger. However, it may not be a bad idea to remind her of that. I have a feeling that this plays into a part of what makes the age related "yellow" factor in these several States that have these age provisions. I'm sure the principal reason is the overblown assumption of the risks to any offspring of cousin couples, but, when that factor is removed, there is no logical reason left to prevent such relationships. Many of these lawmakers being in our demographic, most likely realize as we age, a relationship based on mutual love, respect, and companionship is every bit as important as the physical aspects that seem to inevitably play a disproportionate role when we are younger. I also think they realize there is sometimes a desire to "consolidate" to some degree any family wealth there may be, to where more acquired family wealth stays in the family as older members pass. Throughout history, and continuing today, where cousin couples are allowed, permitted, and even desired, that is one of the major considerations. We got away from the practice here in the U.S. back in the mid-1800s, for a myriad of reasons, but up to that point, that was a major consideration here.

    As Roma said, the old "If you weren't my cousin, ______" line is pretty hard to beat in breaking the ice. Being you ages though, I'd be tempted to modify it. I would modify it to something like " Cousins aside, I could see myself spending the rest of my life like this" on one of your enjoyable times together, whether out and about, or over coffee, if that's how you spend time. You would know the time. It plants the seed, tests the water, and isn't quite so forward as saying " Cousins aside, I could see myself spending the rest of my life with you." You go into that, or back out, depending on her response. If she says "Yeah, I've thought of that", you step it up with some facts. If she says "Yeah, but we ARE cousins", you back it off, but don't run away from it. You're plenty old enough to say something to the effect of "Yeah, but at our age, it's perfectly legal, and at my age, I don't really care what people think so much. Their opinion isn't relative to my happiness actually." Unless she just totally has a meltdown, (which I doubt) the first thing she's going to want to know is how you know it's legal. At that point, you may as well spill the beans, ask her to at least hear you out, and bring her to that link I gave you. From there, you show her the rest of the facts on the main page. Tell her that recently you've began to see her in a somewhat different light, thought you were crazy, so, you looked into it, and this is what you found. If it's beyond her comfort zone, that's fine, but you thought there was the possibility she might at least feel a little bit the same, and thought she should know how you felt, just in case she does feel the same. If she's still totally against the thought, you're a big boy, you can handle it. But, as we always mention, don't be surprised if at some point she doesn't come back and say "You know yukon, I've been thinking, and ......" Nothing ventured, nothing gained, so you may as well wade on off in it my man....

    Good Luck, and let us know how it goes, if you will.   

  14. luckysgirl,

    Ok, NOW I get it. I misread the "second cousins" part, and thought you said you thought you two are second cousins. I knew by what you had given, that wasn't the relation. I see now with your chart that there is an, all be it distant, blood relation.

    So, your Aunt was married to her 1st cousin once removed. If you know the details, was there any family drama when that happened? With the two of you yet another generation down the line, I would hope there would not be any in your case.

    And, even though you didn't mention it, if they had kids, they would still be first cousins to both you AND your bf/cousin. That part I did manage to figure out, LOL.

  15. luckysgirl,

    You haven't given us quite enough information to figure it out, M'Dear. I am confident, from what you have given us, that you are not second cousins. You could be anything from no blood relation at all, to possibly first cousins. (which I do NOT think is the case, if I'm wrapping my head around this correctly) I think you two are probably not actually any blood relation at all, and the only connection is through this marriage. You are kin by blood to your aunt, obviously. As is he to his uncle. Now, if these two had children, THEY would be both you and your bf's cousins, but, you two would not be any blood relation to each other. So, in effect, your bf is the cousin of your cousin(s), (if they did have kids) but not YOUR cousin. As long as your Aunt isn't also HIS Aunt, by blood, and was only his Aunt for so long as she was married to his Uncle, and because of the marriage, and the same applies to you with regards to his Uncle not being your Uncle by any blood relation, and was only your Uncle for the duration of the marriage, and because of it, then NO, the two of you are not actually any blood relation to each other. The only time I could see it getting overly awkward would be if you two decide to get married, and his Uncle and your Aunt were to be on the guest list, and not be able to enjoy the occasion without THEIR drama spilling into it.

    Let us know if I've wrapped my head around this correctly, give us more information if I've not, and maybe me or some of the others here can figure it out.

  16. dimpy23,

    They are only in the Midwest in the US. Even though there are 3 of them in Illinois, and I'm in Illinois, the closest one to me would probably be the one in Indianapolis Indiana. I've been wanting to go for some time now. I would have liked to have gone over the Christmas break, but, we just had too much going on. Maybe, if I get the job I've put in for, Spring Break could be a possibility.

  17. But I thought Indiana recognized the marriage if it was done somewhere else

    Maybe, I'd have to check. Are you in Indiana? If you are, then my look-up is wrong. Wouldn't be the first time, and it's usually pretty good, but, it certainly isn't showing you in Indiana. I went to my file that has more extensive content than is listed in the pop-up on the States page. As far as "skirting" the law in Indiana, no, you can't intentionally skirt the law by going to another State where it's legal, get married, then come back. The only way to legally "skirt" the law in Indiana is to full establish residency elsewhere, (I'm going to say they are going to want to see somewhere between 6 months and a years' proof/documentation of such) THEN, return to Indiana. I don't think this applies to you, but for informational purposes, if someone lives in a "green" State, has a career change/move, is legally married in said "green" State, and moves to Indiana, then, yes, Indiana will recognize that marriage. So long as you are a resident in a jurisdiction where it's legal, and are legally married there, Indiana recognizes it. There are some caveats in the statute with corresponding numbers for other statutes, and, since I didn't go look those up too, there could be other exemptions. If you get to that point, let me know, and I will go dig it up, give you the statutes. We are NOT lawyers, and don't give legal advise, but, we can give you the statutes, and show you what they say. Which brings me to.....

    While I'm here, I'm going to agree with LadyC too. Either he mans' up, or you walk. Unless he's going to get on the bus, all of this worrying is for nothing. If he's so inclined, and you can get him here, bring him here and show him around. If he won't hear you out, and at least offer to take a look at the facts, then yeah, walk. Playing this little game y'all have going is going to end up with you for sure, and probably both of you, hurt, in the end.

  18. Marla,

    Well, you're probably stuck then. No more neeked shenanigans where you are either. I really don't want to see you run afoul of the law, M'Dear. He's (well, both of you are) plenty old enough to make your own decisions, but if relocating is not an option, the decision is made for you....

  19. geek93,

    It would be perfectly fine to tell her how much you've missed her, and want to be with her, then segue that right into what we call the old tried and true "If you weren't my cousin, _______" line. You know, "If you weren't my cousin, I would want you to be my GF." Something like that, that fits the moment. It gives her the chance to say "Yeah, I know, I feel the same way" or "EWW, what are you talking about, we're cousins." Then, it gives you the option of stepping up the conversation if she does feel the same ("Actually, we're second cousins, and it would be legal to get married if we wanted to, so, you can be my GF if you want to" OR, the option to gracefully back out if she doesn't, by saying " I did say IF, you know, IF we weren't cousins...." Then, you have still given her something to think about, and you should not be surprised if at some later date, she comes back and says something like "You know geeky, I've been thinking about this 'if you weren't my cousin' thing, and I think _______ ." But, until that happens, you drop it, if she's negative about it. You will have given her something to think about, let her do so without pressure from you.

  20. Marla,

    See our replies to you in your other thread, but, it sounds like it may not come to that anyhow.

    I guess it depends on how old you two are. If you're both of age, in the end, it doesn't really matter what family says about it, and your major obstacle where you are is the law. And, the need for him to man up, and stand up for you. If he's of age, but still under say, 25 yrs old or so, I can KINDA understand his nervousness, especially if the two of you are still under parents roofs, and they would disagree. You need to be out on your own, and independent first. If you have to move out, it may as well be out of State. But, he has to be willing. Since you would have to move anyhow, that fact alone COULD persuade him to go for it. One of the first inclinations of couples in your situation is to move far enough away that nobody knows you, and you don't have to put up with daily drama out of family. Something to consider, as it's your only LEGAL option anyhow. 

    Why not bring him here, set him down for a good going-over of the facts on this: https://www.cousincouples.com/ page, and see if he can get up to speed? He can either post with you, or on his own, here in the forum, and we'll try to hold your hands and walk you through what you need to do. That's why we're here, after all....

  21. Marla,

    You didn't mention where you are, (and DON'T) but, as a mod I can have a little peek. So, where my look-up is showing you, if it is correct, then, no, you can't. You would have to locate to a State where it is legal. If you are first cousins, and where I'm showing you as being, you do not want to have a physical relationship either. It's considered a felony. You're not in what I consider the worst State, but, probably #2 on the list. If you have extremely deep pockets, and would spoil for the fight, you could probably get the law overturned. It is the most recent one to have been enacted, and, so far as I know, has never been challenged. I have a feeling, by the way it was done, it would only take a reasonably competent lawyer to prevail. But, in my book, it's drama you don't need. If you need a romantic weekend, just go to any number of neighboring States where marriage may or may not be legal, but physical relations are not a felony. 

    That said, IF you DO locate to a state where it's legal, then, you will have to get a dispensation from the area diocese. No big problem, it shouldn't be an issue, but it will probably cost you a nominal "donation" to the diocese. From what I understand, it isn't going to break the bank. The Church will marry first cousins with this dispensation, provided it's legal in the jurisdiction where the marriage is to be solemnized. Here's where you find out which States allow it, (in green) and which allow it under certain conditions (yellow), and which don't(red). https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=states  Not all of the red States consider it criminal incest either. I think, but I'm not positive, the red States which DO consider it a felony now have that noted, and the statutes copied if you click on that State and get the pop up box with statutes. While I'm personally partial to Georgia, I hear Florida is real nice about this time of year. ;)

    Best of luck to the two of you....

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