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Posts posted by Hawk

  1. Arron747,

    So, at least when you were kids, she liked you, now, she loves you, but doesn't see herself being able to marry a guy like you. Why? Is she only attracted to guys who are asshats and treat her bad? Or, is there something about you that she sees as an obstacle, other than the cousin factor?

    I'm just thinking a letter is going to tend to make things weird. Better to do it face to face. I'd pick a time like when this kid crush thing came up a couple months ago, however that situation led to that conversation.

    You need face time, and innocent enough outings such as a nice meal at a reasonably priced place, something outdoors like hiking, maybe camping, or even a movie or night out of some sort. Things that make her enjoy your company, then, when it comes up, you steer the conversation slowly. Keep nudging it out there gently. 

  2. Lovingher9497,

    You didn't mention where you are, so I shan't either. I did, however, take the liberty as a mod to have a little peek. Not to be nosy mind you, but to determine your general location so as to determine your legal situation. Where you are, (and I'll assume you two are first cousins), you cannot marry, and had best not get caught in a uncompromising situation. It's considered a felony. SO, eloping is an option for you that becomes increasingly attractive. Other than physically leaving, there is no need to "abandon" your family. If they don't like the situation, they may abandon YOU, but that is THEIR choice, not yours. I'm not sure if you already knew your legal situation or the extent of it, seeing as you said, and I quote "we would have to elope...." At any rate, you would have to leave the State you are in. As in, the sooner the better, and certainly before you are caught in the act, shall we say. 

    Are the two of you both working? If so, would there be the possibility for either or both of you to transfer to a more "friendly" State? There are a couple States not TOO terribly distant you may wish to consider. For reasons of anonymity, I'll not mention them, but, you can have a look here: https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=states to get an idea. The green ones are the ones you would want to consider. 

  3. Arron747,

    There is a sticky thread to this effect here: https://www.cousincouples.com/forum/index.php/topic,2663.0.html

    I'm not sure if any of it covers a letter. Most of us always advise to test the waters face to face, starting out with what we call "the old tried and true ' If you weren't my cousin' " line. You know, something like "I think you'd be my perfect girlfriend, if you weren't my cousin." Adjust it to your particular situation and when the time seems right to do it, perhaps at the end of an evening, after the two of you have spent some time together. It puts the thought out there, in a "no pressure" kinda way. If she says something along the lines of "Yeah, sux don't it?", you know she either feels the same, or has thought about it. Then, you can wade off a little deeper, and say something like "Yeah, I've actually thought about it at least a little, and I'm not so sure I care so much that we are cousins. I really enjoy our time we spend together."

    If she reacts badly, you have the out of saying "Whoa, whoa, I did say IF, you know, IF you weren't my cousin." Even then, it puts it out there, and gives her the chance to digest the thought. She wouldn't be the first one to come back at some later date and say "You know, I got thinking about what you said, and I actually looked into it, (Google is going to lead her straight here) and it might not be all that far fetched after all."

    You two ARE at, (maybe a year or two beyond,) what I personally consider to be the prefect age to step things up. Any too much younger, and you face possible relationship killing drama out of family. (Even if just for the age factor, when at the age you are now, they may be considerably more comfortable with the idea) Any older, and you may give up without ever knowing, and move on to other people, only to admit feelings later, and risk massive trainwrecks in your then established respective relationships to others.

    Bottom line, from out here in the cheap seats.... Nothing ventured, nothing gained, so you may as well gently test the waters now. Above all, don't push. Toss it out there, and see what happens. Then, regardless, DON'T LET IT GET WEIRD. If it doesn't initially go as you would like it, be patient, don't push, and don't let things change. Keeping it from getting weird or being pushy will go a long way to showing your maturity level and making the thought of the two of you together easier to swallow.

  4. va11eygir1,

    Whether you consciously realize it or not, in the last half of your post, you answer your own questions. You will always find that we here recommend repairing the relationship you have committed to. Even though you are not married, you have children with this man who, up until this little "wrinkle" in your reality, was "the one". You must have felt that way for a reason. That reason is what you have to focus on, even if it means limiting, if not cutting, contact with your cousin. In realizing you would throw you and your children's lives upside down, you risk a massive trainwreck unless you refocus. Yours would not be the first trainwreck we have seen, after advising against it. Nor would you be the first to come back and thank us later for advising you to regroup and refocus the current relationship. Short of the three "A" 's, adultery, abuse (physical, chemical, or mental), or abandonment, (and those to the extent they are totally unfixable) we will always advise to take a step back and a deep breath, shake the cobwebs off, and recommit.

    Though this site is here to encourage and support cousin couples, it is not here to facilitate such at the expense of innocent, vested others. The family as a whole can wail and gnash teeth as much as they want, but, when there are children and innocent SO's involved, who do not deserve to have their lives torn apart, we are going to look to their best interest and discourage the further development of the cousin relationship.

    I would encourage you to put these feelings in a special place in your heart, and understand that life does on occasion throw these little wrinkles in our lives, and that yes, had things been different, things could have been different. But, it is what it is, and it isn't what it might have been. Back away, because you are on very thin ice indeed.....

  5. eflo56,

    What Nat said plus....

    You will first want to look at the link nessa76 posted. The verbiage is cursory for the most part, but, if you have specific questions about specific States, I can get the statute for you. On the linked page, don't worry about the green States. If you were legally married in whichever State you were married in, I wouldn't overly stress over most of the others either. They may have wording to the effect of "whether of the whole or half blood" in their marriage statutes, BUT, if such verbiage isn't in the criminal incest statute, you can legitimately tell them to take a hike. States where you MAY have an issue would include, (but may not be limited to) Wisconsin, Texas, and (IIRC) Nevada. Possibly Oregon, I don't recall. At any rate, as Nat said, I've yet to see "Cousin Inspectors" at State lines. In this Country, you have the right to remain silent, and the right to not incriminate yourself. I always advise to exercise these rights to the fullest........ 

  6. Dieseltech,


    We have had a number of cousin couples from Canada before, but, as of right now, I'm not aware of any that are active.

    Depending on your ages and number of children between the two of you, if any, I rather like your idea of holding your peace, and letting everyone get accustomed to seeing the two of you together, and happy. You don't mention that you are first cousins, so, I'll go ahead and assume you are and advise accordingly. If you were not already aware, it is legal throughout all of Canada for first cousins to marry. Way out in front of where the two of you are, coming out of failed relationships, but, something to keep in mind going forward.

    If I were in your shoes, I would proceed slowly, as you would with any other relationship. Of course, it has been several months now, and I'll assume by your tone that things are going swimmingly. So, proceed with the relationship at the pace which you are comfortable with.

    As far as the reaction from family, it can vary wildly. It could be dancing in the isles, or, it could be a major nuclear meltdown. Most of the time, it falls somewhere in between. Look around here and get the facts. Go to the menu on the main page, http://www.cousincouples.com/, and get up to speed on the legal, religious, and genetic stats. In the forums here, you will find sticky threads on talking to mothers and others in the family. For the time being, if I were you, I would keep it on the somewhat down low. I get the impression you aren't exactly sneaking around about it, but, initially, being overly discrete can be exciting. After a while though, it can become drudgery if you let it. For me, I would just carry on normally, let everyone get accustom to seeing the two of you together, and be ready to answer their questions when they come. By that time, (and, IMHO, the sooner the better) you two need to be on the same page with it, and together, be resolved to stand your ground. The facts are on your side, and unfounded, overblown cultural biases are all you will be standing against. Be prepared to educate your family when asked. All you can do is present the facts. It is their choice as to whether they accept them or not. Their opinion is not your problem. 

  7. Ok, here goes folks.

    I'm locking this thread. I'm leaving it up as a notice to anyone thinking the same thing this thread is asking for.

    I, and by extension, the rest of the staff here, are not trying to be hateful about this. We understand FULLY the dilemma our members and guests in India have. You are not in a good situation at all. We understand your desperation. Desperate situations require desperate solutions. However, THESE FAKE MARRIAGES ARE NOT THE ANSWER. It will not work. We discourage this in the strongest of terms. Even if four of you could hook up and pull this off, sooner (probably) or later (for certain) the charade would be discovered. THEN, it will be four times the drama. Save yourselves the trouble.

    I have what has become known as my "broken record speech to young members and guests". This is going to be my "broken record speech to our members and guests from India". I'm going to type this one time, and then copy/pasta the link in any such future threads just before THEY get locked.

    #1) DO NOT OPENLY POST YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS. This will result in it being removed. It is for your protection. By posting your e-mail address, you open yourself to blackmail and spam. Just don't do it. We realize we cannot stop you from trying to connect for such a scheme, but you will do it through private messages, NOT openly through e-mail. If you persist, and post it again, and I see it, I'll hit you with the banhammer.

    #2) The ONLY solution we recommend for you is to leave where you are for somewhere you can either legally marry, or live quietly in peace. You all almost always say something like "We cannot leave our family. They will surely die." NO, THEY WON'T. Well, everyone dies, but it won't be over this, unless they commit suicide over it, and TRUST ME, suicide is a personal choice. It is a result of ones mental illness. It is a careless, and if it were to happen, spiteful and hateful act by a mentally disturbed individual to shame you into being controlled. If they do, it is NOT your fault, it is their decision alone. I don't care if this sounds harsh, but, my opinion is if someone is so controlling as to do such a thing, more power to them. Here's the gun. Let the Darwin Effect roll.

    #3) Legally, you CAN change your religion from Hindu to Christian or Muslim and marry in India. There is legal precedent, the case is mentioned in one of the India threads here. I don't have time or the inclination to go find it for you, but, it did go all the way through the courts there, and a couple who switched to Christianity married, and it was upheld by the courts. UNLESS YOU SINCERELY BELIEVE THE CHRISTIAN OR MUSLIM RELIGION, WE DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS EITHER. In our opinion, it is the same as a fake marriage. It's living a lie. To thine own self be true, and all of that. That said, the staff here is almost to the person of the Christian persuasion to one extent or another. If you do truly come to believe in Christianity, we would certainly welcome you to it, but, short of "all in" on it, don't do it. You'll be persecuted for that as well, and looking around the world at this point in time, I only see that getting worse as time goes on. Decide for yourselves, but know what you're getting into there as well. You could face violence and death for that decision as surly as being a cousin couple. If you are all in on it, you would be willing to face it. If not, then, not so much. Think very long and hard about such a choice.

    #4) There is no such thing as "cousin brother" or "cousin sister" genetically. You are cousins, period. Unless of course, there were shenanigans between your parents that they aren't telling you about, and you are actually half-siblings, which possibility goes to the root of why there is such a cultural bias against especially parallel cousins. Unlike in the past, these days, I seriously doubt such fooling around happens to any extent. Cousin brother/cousin sister is a culturally invented notion, with fallout that goes to the heart of your dilemma. You need to get over these notions, and go strictly on the blood relation and genetics, which, by the way, is the same with cross or parallel cousins.

    Now I'm going to go into my own personal beliefs as to how you should proceed.

    #1) Save yourselves some drama, and put this on the WAY down low. Then, quietly prepare to leave. If you feel you must legally marry, if you are cross cousins, and not in the South India, (and don't ask me where the dividing line is, you know better than I) you will at the least have to go there. If you are there, you may have to move elsewhere in the South, and STAY THERE. Don't look back or go back.

    #2) IMHO, the better solution, for cross or parallel cousins, is to quietly get passports and visas, arrange for work, and plan to leave India. For good. Don't look back, or go back. Being in the Asia/Pacific zone, I personally recommend Australia, but, as I understand it, they have tightened their immigration requirements. If it isn't quite as stringent, I would think New Zealand would be the next best choice. I'm not sure if being a former British colony, Great Britain is an easier option, but it's certainly something to look at, and cousin marriages are legal there as well. You can try the US, but, trust me when I tell you, our immigration policy is a total disaster right now. To try to do it legally is a years long nightmare. For the time being, to do it illegally it's "Oh yeah, come right on in". It's a topsy tervy mess. I don't advocate breaking the law, but hell, half the world is already doing it, and in your situation, I can at least sympathize more so than with most others. Just realize that if you do come here, some places it's legal, some places it isn't, and by and large, there is a cultural bias against it. Nowhere near as bad as India, but, it still exists, hence this web site.

    #3) The best long term solution is to change the cultural way of looking at cousin couples in India. I realize you all don't have time to wait generations for that to happen, but, you have to start somewhere. If it were to be done right, the culture could change reasonably quickly. Although it is still a hotly debated and contentious issue, the general attitude on gay marriage has changed dramatically in just a very short number of years here in the US. For such a thing to happen with cousins in India, I would think someone famous AND well respected would have to lead the way. If, for example, a well respected member of the Gandhi family were to announce he is in love with his cousin, and intended to marry her, and just a few others of similar stature did the same, initially, it would be scandalous, but, if the scientific information were to be widely disseminated, and the history of just how the cultural bias came about, and that the bias is so outdated, a change of attitudes COULD happen. One thing the people of India have going for them is that they are among the most scientifically well educated people on the planet. Although the cultural bias is quite the hurdle, the actual science and genetics would be understood. The deniers of the science of the matter would be seen as members of the "Flat Earth Society". Short of that, it would take a very vocal, well organized, highly dedicated group of people to put in a lot of hard work, and endure seemingly endless abuse. If you have no stomach for that, then see #2 above.

    So, with that, this thread is locked. There are other similar ones, and if they get "Lazurused", they'll get the same treatment. I'll assume the other mods and admins can, and may, unlock this long enough to comment, then lock it down again. Don't be surprised if others don't add to this.   

  8. ScarletStitch,

    I'll not preach about drinking. I drink. Sometimes, to what most here would consider excess. However, if I'm driving, and I start felling myself getting too far along, I'll switch to Coke or some other soft drink well before I have to drive. I cannot afford a DUI, and I don't mean $$$ wise. I have to be able to travel up to, and sometimes well over, an hour to different jobs I work. In the last two years, I must say, my consumption has went down considerably. It sounds to me as though his is going to have to cease, and that is not going to be up for debate. Speaking of jobs, and being able to get there, does he have a job, and how will he get there? You two have created this new life that he'd best be able to pull his part of the weight to support. Are you working? I'm in Illinois too, so I know how tough the job market here is. Do you plan to move to Iowa? Is he planning on moving to Illinois? I'd have to recheck the verbiage, but, IIRC, 1C1R's can get married in Illinois. I'm pretty sure it says "first cousins" and not "no closer than second cousins" in the statute. I'm not sure about Iowa's statute either, but, ............ actually, I just looked, and Illinois says "cousins of the first degree" and Iowa says only "first cousins". Being once removed from "the first degree" I think you would be fine to marry in either, but, check with a family law attorney or local University law school to be sure.

    You don't mention just how much older than him you are, and I'll not pass judgement on that count either. I chased the older women hard back in the day. My first wife was 8 years older than me. I got a PhD in Hard Knocks out of that one, but, it made me 1) much more cautious going forward, and 2) give up the older women for the most part, LOL. I'd still flirt them up a little, but I scaled my range down a little closer to my own age.  :wink:

    So, all in all, it sounds like it is totally up to the two of you to make this work. You're right to not worry about what others have to say about it. It isn't like it's came totally out of the blue on them. I'd say the reason there isn't more drama and most have calmed down, is, they had their drama fest 10 years ago, and now, they see there IS actually something there, so they may as well suck it up, and get over it. I have a feeling the sisters will come around eventually too. Just do the best you can with the bed you've made, and take it one day at a time. He's going to have to regardless, so, it will behoove you as his helpmate to do likewise, and be his motivation and encouragement.

  9. popzjimmy,

    I'll reply in this thread, as I REALLY have an itchy trigger finger to lock, if not delete the "fake marriage" thread. Not only do we not endorse such schemes, we VERY HIGHLY discourage them.

    Now, on to YOUR situation, which MAY be a little different than the norm we hear from India. If I'm reading this right, you two are second cousins. You would have to read the Hindu Marriage Act to find out for certain that second cousins can marry. It is very hard for us to wrap our heads around the laws in half of the United States, (26 prohibit 1st cousins, one way or another, IIRC) so you are going to be on your own, doing your own digging on this one. I'm not a lawyer here, so I'm certainly not one there. However, I do believe that second cousins can legally marry there. Again, you'll have to verify that for yourself. But, if they can, then go marry the girl. If it is legal, and you do it legally, if family interferes, file either charges, a legal complaint, a restraining order, or whatever the legal remedy there is called. Do not cower to threats of violence. If you are threatened, call the police. The only way things will change in India is for SOMEONE to make a stand. With your history, the forces of change must do it peaceably. You and her absolutely refuse to marry anyone other than each other. If you have to, LEAVE. In your case, you can simply go to another part of the country and start a new life. DO NOT TELL ME THAT IS NOT AN OPTION. IT IS. Especially, in your case, if second cousins are legal. You feel the same cultural pressures to kowtow to and support a family which will not reciprocate to see YOU happy. YOU OWE THEM NO MORE RESPECT THAN THEY SHOW YOU. They have THEIR life, to make THEIR decisions. Not theirs AND yours. You do what makes YOU TWO happy. In the end, when they have all passed, and that time approaches you, you will have to decide if to your own self you have been true. If you have lived your life for the pleasure of someone else, (other than YOUR chosen spouse, which YOU have picked) then you have lived a lie. I don't know about you, but I'll not be that guy.

  10. My 2 cents worth. Find and read Hawk's "broken record speech" on here.  He

    gives excellent advice and especially due to your ages.

    Put  this on the back burner. Become friends and nothing more for the time being.

    You are young and "professing your never ending love" now is probably not in your best interest.

    Best wishes to you both, but please read Hawk's post. It is in several places on the board. Find it

    by searching his member name and posts.

    Here is the link to the broken record speech from Hawk. Scroll down and you will see it oblivioushanna :smiley:



    Thanks Girls,

    And yeah oblivioushanna, that's one of them, and it covers the gist of it. Your situation sounded familiar, so, I had a peek at your posts, and, noticed where you posted in "Our Story" a reasonably detailed description. I also noticed I gave a little more detailed, sort of "custom tailored" broken record reply. I'm glad you are a little more anonymous and discrete because of it. At any rate, go back and read it again. Show the boy this site, and these threads. Have him sign up, or log in on your account and pm me if he wants. He can speak to me in the strictest of confidence. I may not tell him what he wants to hear, but I'll certainly not BS him on the facts. I will tell him what he needs to hear, AND, how he needs to deal with this if he really does love and care about you. Then again, if he's only looking for a romp in the hay, I'll tell him what I think of that too. He probably won't want to hear it, but, it will be what he needs to hear about it, and I'll not be BSing him in the least on that either. If he wants you in any manner, then his getting here and at least looking at the facts should be the very least of a prerequisite......

    And girls, I'm not sure if she's still here. This is for her, in this thread of hers in case she is. But, she's not logged in since about the time of these original threads a month ago. She may or may not be back, but, at least we know we've done our part. I really have to find the time at some point to get a broken record speech worked up for a sticky. I still have the original one I submitted Roma, and if I look, probably your and any of the other mods and admins critique of same. Some of it is a little squirrely, so yeah, I need to polish it up a little. But, even though it is to young members, I don't want to sugar coat it. Even the tweens who find their way here can understand it, and there's nothing beyond PG-13 in it. Even they (and probably especially those that young) should hear it, and know full well what they potentially face before they find out the hard way, and are separated, potentially forever, or at least until they decide to get on the tracks and cause a trainwreck. I don't want to hear any more trainwreck stories..... 

  11. SlpWyllow,

    Even with the history there is, I'm going to still say you two should be fine. That said, your uncle MAY have a point, TO A POINT. The genetic "repercussions" associated with cousin couples are rare conditions, which have now been discovered to be twice as likely in FIRST cousins as opposed to the general population. While that sounds huge, the fact that the "background noise" chance in general is somewhere between 1.5% and 3%, an increase to 3% to 5% isn't going to be prohibitive. It amounts to the same chance of a woman of 40 yrs old having similar issues. The increased risk is known, but you don't see anyone clamoring to sterilize 40 yr old women, or restrict them from becoming pregnant because of it now do you? And again, this is for FIRST cousins. While the chances DO increase more with a continued history of cousin couples in the family tree, with no known issues of this type, and second cousins considered to be at no increased risk, you'll be fine.

    But, your uncle could have a point, just off base as to how he came to it. I've went into this before, but, it's been a while, and some of those threads are probably gone now, so here goes again....

    I'm not with my cousin, nor shall I ever be. (BTW, Happy Birthday Cuz, it's her birthday today. Mine was last Saturday.  :grin: ) We are second cousins, and a lot of why we didn't go for it was, she was scared of what people would say, and that there would be these genetic issues. Way back then, in the Stoned Age, there was no internet, more less web site like this with these resources available. We went on the old wives tale assumptions like everybody else tends to. We had our moment, and walked away. Now, had we went for it, and had kids, even as second cousins, there would have been a better than average chance that there could have been an increased risk of more common issues.

    Our Mom's are first cousins, and they have another male first cousin ( "Uncle___, as we call him, even though he is our 1C1R) by another of our grandfathers' brothers.  I have A-fib. Mom has it. "Uncle ___"  has it. My grandpa had it. But we have no indication that "Uncle ___"'s dad had it. We have no indication Cuz's grandpa had it. Cuz's mom doesn't have it, and neither does Cuz or her sister. So, there is a known history of A-fib in the shared line. Some have it, some don't. Had we went for it, and eventually had kids, the fact that I have it, coming down from at least my grandpa, would have increased the risk to my kids. The fact that Cuz is from the same line, with that known history, COULD also increase the likelihood. But, just as likely, since coming down from HER grandpa, it is NOT there, would be the chance that those genes would have prevailed, and our offspring would not have had it. It would be the same for any normal condition even among non-related partners, with a history in each line. Same goes for other conditions, such as diabetes, breast cancer, (which Mom and Cuz's sister both have had) bad knees, ingrown toenails, blue eyes, you name it. With alcoholism now shown to have a genetic factor, that gets thrown in the mix as well. (That's what killed "Uncle ___"'s Dad) If there's a history of it in the family, then there is the chance it pops up. As the line is a little tighter than the norm, so goes the risk. That part could be correct on your Uncle's part, but, not for the reasons he's assuming, that it is strictly because of the cousin couples. The risk would have been the same had each partner not been related, but, had a history of it in their family as well and yours. The issues known to be specific to cousins are not in this list of more common problems the general population as a whole deal with..... and again, only extending to first cousins.

  12. SlpWyllow,

    Just as we are not lawyers, we're not geneticists either. However, if I'm reading this right, only your grandparents are cousins. First or second cousins? And, I'll assume, being second cousins, one of your grandparents is a sibling to one of his grandparents. I'll assume his other grandparent is not known to be any kin of any sort either. So, I'm going to venture an answer of no, there should be no significant increased risk. You don't mention any ill effects to your parent or any other siblings they might have, as a result of them (the grandparents) being cousins, so, the chances are overwhelmingly in your favor to NOT have any issues. In fact, if the shared family, and the families of the others on your and his side which are married into the shared line are generally healthy, it could go to a slight increase in chances for stronger positive traits from that line. With outside blood in his grandparents marriage, and again in his parents' marriage, as well as your parent's marriage, you should be fine. See how any ill effects (and again, positive traits as well) get watered down quickly, so as second cousins are considered at no appreciable increased risk? See a geneticist, but, I have a feeling they are going to tell you the same thing, M'Dear. Don't loose sleep over it.

    Oh, and if your grandparents are still alive, tell them we said Hi, will ya? LOL Maybe show them this site, and we may be lucky enough for them to share their story with us, and give a little advice from the pros.  :grin:

  13. All,

    Y'all flatter me too much. I'm really not all that wise, or, at least my past behavior would indicate I'm not, lets put it that way.

    I'm not too skeered to go to court on my own in a civil matter. I've done it several times, and prevailed each time. In criminal matters however, unless I knew the statute, and had either a rock solid alibi or rock solid defense, I'll assure you, I'm going to retain counsel. Other than three divorces I've been through though, family court is another matter. Much depends upon the demeanor of the parties involved, their stability, their situation, and yes, judicial prejudice. I don't have children, and, at my age and with a couple procedures I've had done, I'll not be having any now. That complicates matters beyond what I would be willing to go alone on. I'll not say I absolutely WOULDN'T go it alone, but there would have to be extreme extenuating circumstances, such as the mother was obviously, and demonstratively abusive/neglectful. She had been arrested for meth, or some such thing. Then, I wouldn't need a lawyer, just the record.

    If I had such an ignorant bias, I might would consider a relationship with a cousin to rise to that level, but, so long as it isn't criminal incest, I would be wrong. A judge would explain that to me. I don't want to be told by a judge I'm wrong. It hasn't happened yet, but in waiting to be heard, and to parties on the other side of me, I have heard it. It was eye-opening for those other folks.

    I would warn your ex about getting in the mud. You can't throw a little mud without getting some on you. Judges generally don't want to see mud slinging. They don't want the splatter mussing the room, or the bench. Personally, I would also remind him that when he's pointing the finger at you, there are four pointing back at him.


  14. quarter25,

    I'm no lawyer, but, I can give you the statutes in Michigan

    You can't get married there.


    Sec. 3. A man shall not marry his mother, sister, grandmother, daughter,granddaughter, stepmother, grandfather's wife, son's wife, grandson's wife,wife's mother, wife's grandmother, wife's daughter, wife's granddaughter,brother's daughter, sister's daughter, father's sister, mother's sister, or cousin of the first degree, or another man.

    Sec. 4. A woman shall not marry her father, brother, grandfather, son,grandson, stepfather, grandmother's husband, daughter's husband,granddaughter's husband, husband's father, husband's grandfather, husband'sson, husband's grandson, brother's son, sister's son, father's brother, mother's brother, or cousin of the first degree, or another woman.

    Depending on the interpretation, (although, my reading of it doesn't look like something I would want to challenge) you may be able to "skirt". Again, I don't really like the wording I'm reading as to try to outright challenge it.


    551.271 Marriages solemnized in another state validated.

    Sec. 1.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this act, a marriage contracted between a man and a woman who are residents of this state and who were, at the time of the marriage, legally competent to contract marriage according to the laws of this state, which marriage is solemnized in another state within the United States by a clergyman, magistrate, or other person legally authorized to solemnize marriages within that state, is a valid and binding marriage under the laws of this state to the same effect and extent as if solemnized within this state and according to its laws.

    Now, as to incest. I do believe he is full of......... I'll not say it, as bad as I'd like to......let's say crap.


    1) A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the first degree if he or she engages in sexual

    penetration with another person and if any of the following circumstances exists:

    (B) That other person is at least 13 but less than 16 years of age and any of the following:

    (ii) The actor is related to the victim by blood or affinity to the fourth degree.

    MICH. COMP. LAWS SERV . §750.520E(2010).


    (1) A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the fourth degree if he or she engages in sexual

    contact with another person and if any of the following circumstances exist:

    (d) That other person is related to the actor by blood or affinity to the third degree and the sexual

    contact occurs under circumstances not otherwise prohibited by this chapter. It is an affirmative defense

    to a prosecution under this subdivision that the other person was in a position of authority over the

    defendant and used this authority to coerce the defendant to violate this subdivision. The defendant has

    the burden of proving this defense by a preponderance of the evidence. This subdivision does not apply if

    both persons are lawfully married to each other at the time of the alleged violation. (This MAY go to a defense in the "skirting" clause. Speak to an attorney)


      You are related to the fourth degree, BUT, you, (and I'll assume him as well) are over 16 yrs of age. So, it goes to the misdemeanor statute, which only goes out to the THIRD degree. By the civil calculation, which most statutes are based on, (Louisiana being one possible exception, I'd have to dig) first cousins are FOURTH degree. 

    So, IF this is all current, which I believe it is, (it has only been a few months since I looked all of these up) and, the way I'm reading it, it's as follows:

    You can't get married in either Illinois OR Michigan, you MAY (but maybe NOT too) be able to marry elsewhere and move to Michigan, but, at the fourth degree, and over the age of 16, it is not criminal. AGAIN, YMMV, but, that's about how I see it. It doesn't look good, but at least it isn't Wisconsin or Texas, or a couple others. CPS is NOT going to take your child, at least not in Illinois. Since the statutes are about the same, at least until you are 50 or 55 (I don't recall) in Illinois, when you can marry, I doubt they would have any interest in coming after your child in Michigan either. He's full of beans, or worse, and he's pulling your chain....

    Go see a lawyer, copy/pasta these statutes from Michigan, and get his opinion. You will probably be advised to speak to a lawyer in Michigan by him(/her). Probably not a bad idea. Have your lawyer tell the ex you are in contact with a Michigan attorney, and you're going to have it all taken care of before you move. Have him tell him he can give him a list of motels he can come stay at to fight you there, because you are going to have your current custody arrangement affirmed in Michigan. Better yet, do consider Georgia, if at all possible. It's wonderful this time of year, and you can get married, and, judges there find VERY little humor in shenanigans out of vengeful ex husbands. (especially Yankees. LMAO)  First hand pro-tip, from your Uncle Hawk...  :wink:

    Maybe if Colorado Married happens upon this, or if you would like to pm him to have a look and comment, he would be so good as to expand on it. He's a busy boy, but he may just be one person who gets into this sort of thing more than I do. LOL

  15. Braden,

    Sorry it has taken me so long to reply. I'm on 10hr shifts right now, an hour away, so, it makes for basically at least 12 hr days, and much more when you consider I have to get up REAL early, esp. for a night owl like me. Anywho...

    First off, as is my standard donation to the party, is, do what you have to, to focus on the schoolwork. Period.

    Next. You two are young, her being a minor. I'm not going to take the time to have a little peek to see what State (or country for that matter, if you're outside the U.S.) you are in. Most have some sort of "Romeo/Juliet" provision in the law for young people who are in your situation, with one party being a minor, and the other of age, (usually if the parties involved are within 3- 5 years or so apart in age) to where you would not be charged with statutory violations varying from felonies to misdemeanors. (statutory rape/contributing to the delinquency, and such) However, some handful of States consider physical relations between cousins of ANY age to be incest, and at least a class 4 felony. Of course, such interaction is WAY out in front of where the two of you are at this point. But, I can assure you, there is the very strong possibility that one of these visits could have enough "alone time" for something to happen. These things between cousins are prone to become very intense, very quickly. An innocent massage can turn to adult interaction in a mere matter of moments. Especially if she has similar feelings toward you. 

    Now, as to if she does have such an attraction, and, your obvious attraction, and how you are going to deal with it. You have the right ideas here. You do NOT want to blow up her phone. BIG turn-off. Whether you are or not, it makes you seem desperate, or worse, some sort of creeper. You wisely realize this, and have made the decision to not go there. Brilliant. Also smart on you, is, telling her of this attraction face to face. Mature. Well thought out, and good on you. But, in the meanwhile, allow me to give you a little food for thought that would be fine to do electronically, preferably by voice or Skype, something to that effect. Around here, we have what we call "the old tried and true 'If you weren't my cousin, _________' " line. Fill in the blank to fit your situation and particular conversation. Say you are on the phone, and it's one of these "tensiony" interactions. You say "You know, we get along so well, if you weren't my cousin, I'd ask you out/take you out/ask you to be my GF,....." whatever fits the mood and tone. It gives her the ambiguous ability to be candid, and you the ability to discreetly gauge her reaction. Her response determines your next words. If she says something to the effect of "Yeah, I know, it sux we're cousins don't it?", you know she has at least some similar feelings as you. From there, you dip your toes a little deeper, and maybe say "Actually, I don't really care that we are cousins, but, I ain't real sure if it's legal though...." and then kinda chuckle at yourself. It gets the wheels turning. If she has what we call the "ick" factor and says "Are you crazy, we ARE cousins", you have the out of saying "Uh, YEAH, I did say 'IF' you know. IF we weren't cousins...." And from there you back it off. You will have given her food for thought, even if she can't presently see herself accepting such a relationship. If you look around here, you'll see stories of members (male and female) who initially had such a reaction, but later, thought about it and warmed up to the idea. They thought "You know, Cuz IS a good person, obviously has some feelings of some sort for me, would more likely than the average Joe (or Jane) treat me well, considering we do have the blood ties, and maybe I CAN actually entertain the idea of this." Then, they type in "I think I like my cousin" or some such on Google, and PRESTO, now, THEY are here too....LOL

    Now, lets go back to my "broken record" speech.

    #1) FOCUS ON THE SCHOOLING. Tell her about school on the occasions you do talk to her. Strongly encourage her to continue her education/training in some manner as well. You both need to be in a position of independence if there's going to be any history in the making.

    #2) Keep the physical in check when you do have face time. I'm not going to be some old fogy on you, and say NO physical interaction, because you already have some innocent "hands on" experience going on. But, it behooves you to keep your pants on. AT LEAST till she's of age, and you can determine you legal standing where you are, and where she is, whichever locale any such shenanigans go down in.

    #3) Don't blow her phone up, but, stay in contact, stay close, and build a true friendship. Texting is fine for this part of it. But, NO DAMN SEXTING. Be very careful even with veiled innuendos. If perchance her parents or friends get ahold of her phone, and there are shenanigans on it, you could be looking at MAJOR drama, from people who may eventually be fine with it at some later date, when you two are both of age and independent. Don't do anything stupid to screw the pooch now. Put it on the back burner for now, and build a foundation to work with later. (see ^^^ "If you weren't my cousin,...." and all of that again)

    #4) If you do all of these things, she is, or gets, on the same page, you both get independent, then you figure out whether where she is, or where you are holds the better opportunities, then you act on it. We generally recommend 20ish, and I personally recommend 22ish as a good age to step off in the waters. In your case, you would be 22, she would be 20, and at that point, you should have it figured out as to whether or not you want to go for it. If you do, go for it, and don't let anyone, (other than the legal ramifications/authorities) stop you. (In that case, find a nice green State with good opportunities to locate in per http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=states) I recommend, even for folks older than the two of you would be, that you do your best to have a two bedroom place, and each avail yourselves of a bedroom. For a couple of reasons. One, it "keeps up appearances" for nosy friends and family. The actual sleeping arrangements are NOT for public consumption. Next, it gives you both your own space. Initially, couples can't get enough of each other, but it usually doesn't take long for them to, LOL. If during the "fireworks" phase, you each still have your own space, and use it, it lessens the feeling of "I love him/her, but we're constantly up each others arse" thing. You gotta take a breath now and again. Knowaddamean?

    That's pretty much the gist of the broken record speech, and most of it, again, is way out in front of where you are for the time being. It just is my personal idea of a framework to use for a chance at a solid future, and how to go about getting there. 

  16. Jdroox,

    I'm going to ask LadyC or one of the other admins to split this off to its own thread, so as to not hijack this one.

    In the meanwhile, look around to some of my recent posts to younger members. You will find reference to what has come to be known around here as "Hawks broken record speech to young members." These recent members were slightly older than you two IIRC, but, the basics remain the same.

    Once upon a time, I typed out a rather windy, but (IMHO) thorough encapsulation of my thoughts on the matter, which I submitted to the admins and mods for their critique. I had some feedback, but never got around to editing it accordingly. I actually poked around to see if I could find it, and it does still exist. I'm working 10hr shifts right now, so, I don't have a lot of time to do a major re-write of the thing. But, I will try very soon to work on it, resubmit it, and see if we can have it as a sticky, for our young members, guests, and lurkers.

    Do stick around, read all the information on the main page, read through as much of the "Help/Advice" section of the forum as is still available, (we had a major overhaul not real long ago, and much is archived, but no longer available on site) and try to get the gist of what I and others recommend for younger folks such as yourself.

  17. Prithvi,

    No idea.

    #1) We have a hard enough time trying to keep up with the laws in the half of the US States that don't allow it to one degree or another.

    #2) If it's illegal, it's illegal. As far as if it is criminal incest, see ^^^ #1) above.

    #3) That is up to you two. I personally, (and, feeling I represent the consensus of the mods and admins here) recommend you migrate to a friendlier country. Being in the Pacific Rim, I personally recommend Australia if you can still get in. (or, similarly, NZ)

    #4) While nobody can guarantee your children would be fine, the odds are WAY in your favor that they would. With such an extremely low history of cousin couples, I would venture you would have to go back AT LEAST 5 or 6 generations to find such a pairing in your genealogy. That being the case, the chances of problems in no way should be considered to be the factor that would stop you from starting a family.

    #5) Again, see #1) above. But, I want to tell you, and ALL other MEMBERS AND LURKERS FROM INDIA: The first thing I want to pound into your collective heads is NO MATTER WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD AND BEEN TAUGHT, COUSINS ARE NOT SIBLINGS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "COUSIN BROTHER AND COUSIN SISTER" PERIOD. You are either brother and sister, or, cousins. The only "cousin brother or cousin sister" is the brother or sister of your cousin, and that is properly described as "My cousins' brother or my cousins' sister." The whole concept of cousins being extended siblings it complete insanity. Granted, my cousin and I WERE as close emotionally as siblings growing up, but, we had no delusions that we WERE actually siblings. We were cousins, and knew it very well. This may be a new concept to you all, but you MUST grasp it. PLEASE.

    I certainly do wish I could take you, and all our other members, guests and lurkers from India "out from these bad stuffs." But, I can't. Only YOU ALL can do it for yourselves. It takes great faith and great commitment. Sadly, many in your situation don't have it. Maybe you do, and will be able to find the way. I certainly hope so....... 

  18. jennifer1233,

    LadyC is correct. Second cousins are legal everywhere so far as we know of. But, that is all WAY out in front of where the two of you are now. For now, both of you concentrate on your schooling. You say he's off to college, but what of you? You need to get some sort of either degree, or these days, some sort of practical certification of some sort to get gainfully employed. Even though it is legal for the two of you to have whatever relationship you choose to have, that doesn't mean that uninformed family and friends can't or won't give you grief over it. Be in a position to be independent, and not beholden to people who may not agree with the relationship for your support.

    Until then, put all of this on low heat. We usually say "on the back burner", but, you've already had sex once, which you've admitted you wanted, but still, until you both get independent, it would be a good idea to get the ground rules in place before you get back in the sack again. It will do neither of you any good for you to end up in, as I call it, "a motherly way" before you're ready to do so. Lots of drama would come from people who would possibly later, when you're older, and independent, be fine with that. But, at 17/18, nah, probably not. I'm not so naive as to think there will be no shenanigans, but, you would do well to limit them, and come clean to him about your feeling instead of " i feel like i want to tell him but oh hell nooooo." If you want him to tell you something more, you're going to have to tell him the truth. And, the truth out of him may be that he does love this GF, even though on a different level he loves you. That means taking your time and letting that situation play out as well. If he's off to college, and she isn't going to the same college, chances are better than average that that relationship will end. By the same token, if it ends now, and he's away at college, and you two start up something, chances are it won't last either. Do the college thing. Date others, but, stay close. Once you are 20ish (you'll always see me recommend 22ish or so) THEN step off into it a little deeper. Have the friendship firmly in place, the feelings all out in the open, and if at that time you are both still on board with it, go for it, and don't let anyone stop you.... 

  19. FruitCup

    If I'm following this correctly, you two would be step-second cousins. Since regular second cousins are legal in all 50 States, and pretty much world wide so far as we know, there is nothing legally stopping you two. HOWEVER, at 16 and 17, I'm going to link you to another recent thread I posted my infamous "broken record speech to young members" in. Take the advice and adjust it as needed to your particular situation, but do try to follow the high points.

    http://www.cousincouples.com/forum/index.php/topic,8022.0.html    Scroll down the replies to mine, and, go ahead and read the other replies as well.

  20. Joe,

    As far as in your home town, you would need to see a family law practitioner. Your results may vary. You may need to speak to more than one. You should be able to fine one who will actually look at the law and tell you, without letting their personal biases cloud their advice.

    We are not lawyers, and do not give legal advice. That being said, not too long ago, I went through, and looked up the statutes for all the States which, in one way or another, prohibit cousin marriage. I do recall the verbiage as you describe it. Again, I'm NOT a lawyer, but, if that is still how the statute stands, that IS pretty specific, and does NOT include 1C1R's.

    Our admin LadyC is in Texas, and married to her 1C1R, and has been for several years now. Of course, with that is the caveat that they were married BEFORE the law was changed. I have a feeling when she sees this, she'll pop in for her take on it as well. 

  21. oblivioushanna,

    With your picture avatar and possible/probable name reference in your user name, and at your young age, you are a little less anonymous than I would like to see you, but, hey, you're not just walking the walk, you're talking the talk as far as not being scared of what others would think. Your cousin, on the other hand, not so much so, it seems.

    I do certainly see why your cousin would want to have a physical relationship with you, as you are quite an attractive (AND seemingly intelligent) young lady. Now, to get HIM to the point of wanting something considerably more meaningful.....

    I'm not a big fan of bullying or cajoling in any way shape or form. However, in your case, and with you being the elder, and willing to step up to a deeper, longer term, more committed relationship, you may have to "sternly direct" him our direction for a good old dose of the facts regarding the ability of the two of you to be together. I would let him know about the old "free milk and the cow" thing, and tell him before you get that deep into it, there are ways for the two of you to be in a committed relationship, and that's what it's going to take for you to be all in. Then, get him here, and show him the facts.

    On to some of those facts. First of all, as enthusiastic as you are, the two of you will NOT be able to legally marry in WV. Sorry, just a fact. However, the actual physical part is NOT considered incest in WV. So, in that respect, he is correct about it only being able to be physical, even if he doesn't know exactly WHY, and is going strictly on the old stereotypes. Then again, if this cousin of yours who passed was his uncle, then there's a chance you two are actually what is called first cousins once removed. We would have to look at the actual family tree to determine this, but, that's easily enough done. If that IS the case, then there MAY be the chance that the two of you could marry in WV. It would take considerably more digging into the law than I have briefly done this morning to actually determine that. Anywho, all of that is putting the cart before the horse at this point. Methinks it's time to break out my old trusty "broken record speech" to young members and dust it off for you. Ready? Here goes....

    I probably need not tell you, but, you ARE young. Even though you seem, and probably are, quite mature for your age. I'll go on the assumption that he is as well, or, you wouldn't be so attracted to him. However, it behooves you BOTH to get a little older before you wade off so deeply into a committed, life-long relationship. In the meantime, what are your long term plans? You say you will be moving out. Does that mean you are going to be living somewhere going to school? If not, I'd recommend it, STRONGLY. You don't necessarily have to get a degree in rocket science or brain surgery, but I highly recommend a degree or trade certification of some sort that is both rewarding and financially viable. I will also STRONGLY encourage you, (again, being the elder) to strongly encourage HIM likewise, to continue his education in a real meaningful fashion. I will tell you that if you two go for it, you will want to be in the position of being fully independent and out on your own. You do not want to be beholden to family, who may be considerably less enthusiastic about this relationship, for your support. The two of you want to be in a position to go it alone if need be.

    Which brings me to recommend that for the time being, you two cool the jets a little, put this on the back burner to some degree, and start focusing on those aspects, and, building the friendship, trust, and other long term goals you two share. Merge these goals. Learn the give and take that it takes to have a successful long term relationship. I know it will seem like forever, but I would want you two to wait at least until you are 20ish, and I personally recommend 22ish as a good age to step off the deep end, and go for it. While you can physically, (and, with most States having some sort of 'Romeo/Juliet' statute, legally) get on with the physical part, it is very risky at your young ages to do so. I'm an old fart, but I'm not so naive as to not know what 16 and 17 year olds are up to these days. Hell, I haven't killed so many brain cells yet that I don't remember what I was up to back then.  :grin: What happens to your long term view of where you want this to go if perhaps you find yourself in a "motherly way" any time soon, say, next summer? What will family have to say about that? Be as careful as you will, but, careful as you can be, if there are neeked shenanigans going on, unplanned pregnancy is ALWAYS the possible outcome. Even if family would be fine with the two of you together later, say, once your over 20 or so, I'm willing to bet good $$$ they would have a high speed come-apart if they fine out the two of you are fooling around now, or in the not so distant future. Though they may not be able to totally stop you, they can make you extremely uncomfortable in the process of trying. That has the potential to adversely affect the long term relationship, trust me. We've seen many cases of folks your age jumping too quick, only to have family separate them, and ruining the chance at a relationship until they are in their 30's or 40's, when they decide they no longer care what anyone thinks, and are in other relationships, and it causes a MASSIVE trianwreck in their and other innocent parties' lives. Don't be those people. Take your time, get him up to speed, get yourselves in a position to be independent, and THEN go for it, and don't let ANYBODY talk you out of it.... 

    I see while I was typing this that my girl quater25 has given you basically the same advice. Great minds thinking alike and all of that, HAHAHA. Anyhow, please DO take all of this under advisement. If you play this right, you up your odds of making it work for the long term.

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